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The challenge till this is widely supported (caniuse.com currently pegs it at 46% globally [1]) will be using this as a progressive enhancement that does not pr

The challenge till this is widely supported (caniuse.com currently pegs it at 46% globally [1]) will be using this as a progressive enhancement that does not provide a worse or unusable experience for users with browsers not supporting it yet. In other words, don’t include critical information or functionality in the new styling that isn’t available in the underlying plain select element! But such is always a good practice anyway. Very nice to see this taking shape though! Should be a huge improvement over the div monster that custom select box replacements often are. :) [1] https://caniuse.com/mdn-css_properties_appearance_base-select https://caniuse.com/mdn-css_properties_appearance_base-selec...

no_wizard 1y ago
The perpetual 5 year problem of web development. I wish there was a way to do forward standards
paddy_m 1y ago
This is true, and I try not to get eager about new browser improvements for this reason. But look at the porgress over time in browser abilities, it's astounding. The days are long but the years are short.
simiones 1y ago
You'll probably still keep a <div>-based control in your page, and selectively hide the <select> based one or this one, or generate different HTML for different browsers if you can do that.
ddoolin 1y ago
I agree that this is a huge improvement, but it's also over a decade late IMO. This should've been accomplished well before now, especially given that the issue has been there since the beginning.
- pclmulqdq 1y ago
  Because frontend is frontend, Javascript frameworks dominated the conversation even for silly things like basic web forms for the past 15 years. Basic HTML/CSS is now catching up to the fact that not everyone wants to run a Javascript monstrosity for custom styling on very basic tasks.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - no_wizard 1y ago
    The prevalence of JS and JS backed components is due to the reluctance of browser vendors to introduce new HTML elements that everyone has been lobbying for in the same time period. By and large browser vendors for the longest time, even today still in many respects, repeatedly ignore pleas for more elements that cover common use cases. Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters
    - lelanthran 1y ago
      > Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters How are those half-baked? No smooth transition for details/summary, maybe? Dialog seems to work well enough with little to no javascript required: <dialog> <h3>Warning:</h3> ... <button onclick='this.closest("dialog").close()'>Dismiss</button> </dialog> My personal bugbear is the date/time input - FF doesn't even show a click element for time, you have to type in the time.
      - no_wizard 1y ago
        There's some quirks with the API around open vs openModal if you aren't aware of the accessibility implications you may not even realize this is the case. Forms have some special quirks inside of a dialog. The biggest thing though, is for the life of me I don't understand why you can't open and close a dialog without JavaScript. There's no way to do it.
- true_religion 1y ago
  I somehow feel Safari drags its feet on basic things platform improvements because they want to focus on iOS apps instead.
  - arp242 1y ago
    Eh; the standard is two weeks old. Written by someone working for Apple by the way.
    - true_religion 1y ago
      I’m wondering where in my comment it sounded like I wanted this standard specially to be implemented yesterday?
  - alwillis 1y ago
    The narrative Safari is behind and Apple doesn’t care about the web is so tired… This 8,000+ word article on Safari 18.4 (released today, BTW) doesn’t read like an organization that doesn’t care about the web [1]. [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4/ https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4...
    - yujohn 1y ago
      [dead]
    - true_religion 1y ago
      The pace of improvement in the web is slow. I don’t want to debate if a mega corp cares or not, but compared to how UI frameworks were in the 90s, the developer experience is anemic. I don’t know if HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the best path forward. Maybe they are doing exactly what their spec set out to do. But we need something better that doesn’t leash one to an ecosystem that takes 30% of your revenue.
- ksec 1y ago
  Over TWO decades late. It is crazy to think what we only just have in anything non JavaScript in the past 20 years.
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  It's like how border-radius was added after rounded corners via images fell out of fashion.
bsimpson 1y ago
> But such is always a good practice anyway. One more reminder to develop for people who may not perceive color and shape as you do. If you're hiding critical information in your menu styles, that information is presumably inaccessible to people who are using a screen reader.
klysm 1y ago
This might be a bad take, but I think developers should also consider exactly which users are using their app. If it’s the entire internet, then absolutely you need to consider backwards compatibility. If it’s an internal app, then consider not caring and using new APIs.

no_wizard 1y ago

The perpetual 5 year problem of web development. I wish there was a way to do forward standards

paddy_m 1y ago

This is true, and I try not to get eager about new browser improvements for this reason. But look at the porgress over time in browser abilities, it's astounding. The days are long but the years are short.

simiones 1y ago

You'll probably still keep a <div>-based control in your page, and selectively hide the <select> based one or this one, or generate different HTML for different browsers if you can do that.

ddoolin 1y ago

I agree that this is a huge improvement, but it's also over a decade late IMO. This should've been accomplished well before now, especially given that the issue has been there since the beginning.

pclmulqdq 1y ago
Because frontend is frontend, Javascript frameworks dominated the conversation even for silly things like basic web forms for the past 15 years. Basic HTML/CSS is now catching up to the fact that not everyone wants to run a Javascript monstrosity for custom styling on very basic tasks.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- no_wizard 1y ago
  The prevalence of JS and JS backed components is due to the reluctance of browser vendors to introduce new HTML elements that everyone has been lobbying for in the same time period. By and large browser vendors for the longest time, even today still in many respects, repeatedly ignore pleas for more elements that cover common use cases. Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters
  - lelanthran 1y ago
    > Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters How are those half-baked? No smooth transition for details/summary, maybe? Dialog seems to work well enough with little to no javascript required: <dialog> <h3>Warning:</h3> ... <button onclick='this.closest("dialog").close()'>Dismiss</button> </dialog> My personal bugbear is the date/time input - FF doesn't even show a click element for time, you have to type in the time.
    - no_wizard 1y ago
      There's some quirks with the API around open vs openModal if you aren't aware of the accessibility implications you may not even realize this is the case. Forms have some special quirks inside of a dialog. The biggest thing though, is for the life of me I don't understand why you can't open and close a dialog without JavaScript. There's no way to do it.
true_religion 1y ago
I somehow feel Safari drags its feet on basic things platform improvements because they want to focus on iOS apps instead.
- arp242 1y ago
  Eh; the standard is two weeks old. Written by someone working for Apple by the way.
  - true_religion 1y ago
    I’m wondering where in my comment it sounded like I wanted this standard specially to be implemented yesterday?
- alwillis 1y ago
  The narrative Safari is behind and Apple doesn’t care about the web is so tired… This 8,000+ word article on Safari 18.4 (released today, BTW) doesn’t read like an organization that doesn’t care about the web [1]. [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4/ https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4...
  - yujohn 1y ago
    [dead]
  - true_religion 1y ago
    The pace of improvement in the web is slow. I don’t want to debate if a mega corp cares or not, but compared to how UI frameworks were in the 90s, the developer experience is anemic. I don’t know if HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the best path forward. Maybe they are doing exactly what their spec set out to do. But we need something better that doesn’t leash one to an ecosystem that takes 30% of your revenue.
ksec 1y ago
Over TWO decades late. It is crazy to think what we only just have in anything non JavaScript in the past 20 years.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
It's like how border-radius was added after rounded corners via images fell out of fashion.

bsimpson 1y ago

> But such is always a good practice anyway. One more reminder to develop for people who may not perceive color and shape as you do. If you're hiding critical information in your menu styles, that information is presumably inaccessible to people who are using a screen reader.

klysm 1y ago

This might be a bad take, but I think developers should also consider exactly which users are using their app. If it’s the entire internet, then absolutely you need to consider backwards compatibility. If it’s an internal app, then consider not caring and using new APIs.