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That is a great list. The principle behind this is the defensive democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Def

That is a great list. The principle behind this is the defensive democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy

profstasiak 1y ago
how is sentencing for corruption connected to defensive democracy?
- condensedcrab 1y ago
  The headline really should be Le Pen guilty of embezzlement, ineligible to run for public office for X years. Seems like a reasonable policy we should adopt in the US…
  - trilbyglens 1y ago
    Wouldn't matter. Trump is already a felon and should be ineligible. We have at least two parallel lehal systems in the US, probably more. The more "important" you are the less the rules are able to touch you. That's the american way.
    - kelseyfrog 1y ago
      This aligns with America's original "sin", rule of law versus a disguised aristocracy. It's always there beneath the surface. People find the dream of hitting the jackpot far more appealing than creating a genuinely classless society.
      - trilbyglens 1y ago
        Exactly. For better or worse, and whether or not people realize that we have basically inherited and mutated the English class system, except instead of being defined by your birth lineage, it's now defined by how much money you have. I guess you could call that egalitarian in the way that the British call their private schools, "public schools", meaning that anyone with an adequate amount of money is allowed to attend them.
- Tostino 1y ago
  Applying the laws regardless of if that person is a political candidate.
  - jonathanstrange 1y ago
    That's the case in any working democracy. Defensive democracy is a different conception, e.g. the German constitution allows for party prohibitions. In a defensive democracy, rules like party prohibitions are ideally not applied by an ordinary court but by an independent political organ. To give an example from Germany, the German Supreme Court is an independent political organ that serves as a power division element to check the work of the two parliaments for constitutionality. The "highest" ordinary court is the Bunderverwaltungsgericht.
- woodpanel 1y ago
  Hehe, now let’s wait and see how they grapple with the fact that you can’t have both! It‘s either criminal use of EU funds or defensive democracy, unless you’re drenched in kool-aid.
  - jonathanstrange 1y ago
    The verdict was clearly and unambiguously about a criminal abuse of EU funds and nothing else. It's noteworthy that a list of people was sentenced for it, not just Le Pen.
    - woodpanel 1y ago
      sure, and just 4 days prior to that totally neutral verdict another french court ruled that political bans were legal. what a coincidence, what a convenience. something that was never even considered legal in France just “clearly and unambiguously” fell into that judge’s hands days ahead. No, there’s nothing noteworthy here, especially for a crime Le Pen didn’t committed herself and which every single party of France is guilty of. Don’t choke on that kool aid!
      - jonathanstrange 1y ago
        You're talking to the wrong person since I would fully support a prohibition of the RN if France's democracy was as combative as it should be. I just don't think this played a role here. Politicians complaining bitterly about being persecuted for crimes they've committed is not a new thing, though, they always believe they deserve special treatment.
- Boldened15 1y ago
  The Wikipedia article has "deprival of the rights of individuals and parties from running for election" listed as a method. So I assume the prison/fine part of the sentencing wouldn't really be defensive democracy but barring her from office is. (Don't think I would feel positively about that in the U.S. but nonetheless the concept is there.)
potato3732842 1y ago
>The principle behind this is the defensive democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy Excuse me but what in the hell? To come in here and redefine a corruption investigation as being in that camp is not only an insult to the reader but it an insult to everyone who both cares about civil rights and government corruption at the same time. Defensive democracy is just marketing spin on exactly the sort of civil rights violating process that gives the establishment huge advantage over any challenger and exactly the sort of crap totalitarian regimes love and leverage to great effect. The wikipedia page that you linked lists the following examples of "defensive democracy". >Surveillance by the security corps (especially military and police intelligence) of activists who are considered dangerous, or after entire associations outright; >Restrictions on the freedom of movement or action over bodies suspected of endangering democracy; >Deprival of the rights of individuals and parties from running for election >Outlawing of organizations considered a danger to democracy; >Cancellation of elections as a last resort "" Does that sound like the kind of stuff that fair, well run by rule of law, stable democracies with lots of buy in from the populace do to you? Because it sure doesn't to me. It's basically a list of stuff unpopular governments use to stay in power a little longer. To come in and lay claim to the credibility of of something that everyone can agree is good (prosecuting corruption, equality under the law) and siphon some of that off onto a subject that is highly controversial (selective violations of civil rights, nominally for a good reason) by just falsely claiming the good thing is a subset of the controversial thing is dishonest and morally reprehensible.
- aredox 1y ago
  >Does that sound like the kind of stuff that fair, well run by rule of law, stable democracies with lots of buy in from the populace do to you? ...Yes? Or are you saying politicians can just barge in and say "the rules don't apply to me because I'm popular"? Because that's how you don't get stable democracies. What you get is Trump, or the Red Brigades, or the Brown Shirts running things to the ground. Because the motto of those orgs is "one man, one vote... One last time"
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

That is a great list. The principle behind this is the defensive democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy

profstasiak 1y ago

how is sentencing for corruption connected to defensive democracy?

condensedcrab 1y ago
The headline really should be Le Pen guilty of embezzlement, ineligible to run for public office for X years. Seems like a reasonable policy we should adopt in the US…
- trilbyglens 1y ago
  Wouldn't matter. Trump is already a felon and should be ineligible. We have at least two parallel lehal systems in the US, probably more. The more "important" you are the less the rules are able to touch you. That's the american way.
  - kelseyfrog 1y ago
    This aligns with America's original "sin", rule of law versus a disguised aristocracy. It's always there beneath the surface. People find the dream of hitting the jackpot far more appealing than creating a genuinely classless society.
    - trilbyglens 1y ago
      Exactly. For better or worse, and whether or not people realize that we have basically inherited and mutated the English class system, except instead of being defined by your birth lineage, it's now defined by how much money you have. I guess you could call that egalitarian in the way that the British call their private schools, "public schools", meaning that anyone with an adequate amount of money is allowed to attend them.
Tostino 1y ago
Applying the laws regardless of if that person is a political candidate.
- jonathanstrange 1y ago
  That's the case in any working democracy. Defensive democracy is a different conception, e.g. the German constitution allows for party prohibitions. In a defensive democracy, rules like party prohibitions are ideally not applied by an ordinary court but by an independent political organ. To give an example from Germany, the German Supreme Court is an independent political organ that serves as a power division element to check the work of the two parliaments for constitutionality. The "highest" ordinary court is the Bunderverwaltungsgericht.
woodpanel 1y ago
Hehe, now let’s wait and see how they grapple with the fact that you can’t have both! It‘s either criminal use of EU funds or defensive democracy, unless you’re drenched in kool-aid.
- jonathanstrange 1y ago
  The verdict was clearly and unambiguously about a criminal abuse of EU funds and nothing else. It's noteworthy that a list of people was sentenced for it, not just Le Pen.
  - woodpanel 1y ago
    sure, and just 4 days prior to that totally neutral verdict another french court ruled that political bans were legal. what a coincidence, what a convenience. something that was never even considered legal in France just “clearly and unambiguously” fell into that judge’s hands days ahead. No, there’s nothing noteworthy here, especially for a crime Le Pen didn’t committed herself and which every single party of France is guilty of. Don’t choke on that kool aid!
    - jonathanstrange 1y ago
      You're talking to the wrong person since I would fully support a prohibition of the RN if France's democracy was as combative as it should be. I just don't think this played a role here. Politicians complaining bitterly about being persecuted for crimes they've committed is not a new thing, though, they always believe they deserve special treatment.
Boldened15 1y ago
The Wikipedia article has "deprival of the rights of individuals and parties from running for election" listed as a method. So I assume the prison/fine part of the sentencing wouldn't really be defensive democracy but barring her from office is. (Don't think I would feel positively about that in the U.S. but nonetheless the concept is there.)

potato3732842 1y ago

>The principle behind this is the defensive democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy Excuse me but what in the hell? To come in here and redefine a corruption investigation as being in that camp is not only an insult to the reader but it an insult to everyone who both cares about civil rights and government corruption at the same time. Defensive democracy is just marketing spin on exactly the sort of civil rights violating process that gives the establishment huge advantage over any challenger and exactly the sort of crap totalitarian regimes love and leverage to great effect. The wikipedia page that you linked lists the following examples of "defensive democracy". >Surveillance by the security corps (especially military and police intelligence) of activists who are considered dangerous, or after entire associations outright; >Restrictions on the freedom of movement or action over bodies suspected of endangering democracy; >Deprival of the rights of individuals and parties from running for election >Outlawing of organizations considered a danger to democracy; >Cancellation of elections as a last resort "" Does that sound like the kind of stuff that fair, well run by rule of law, stable democracies with lots of buy in from the populace do to you? Because it sure doesn't to me. It's basically a list of stuff unpopular governments use to stay in power a little longer. To come in and lay claim to the credibility of of something that everyone can agree is good (prosecuting corruption, equality under the law) and siphon some of that off onto a subject that is highly controversial (selective violations of civil rights, nominally for a good reason) by just falsely claiming the good thing is a subset of the controversial thing is dishonest and morally reprehensible.

aredox 1y ago
>Does that sound like the kind of stuff that fair, well run by rule of law, stable democracies with lots of buy in from the populace do to you? ...Yes? Or are you saying politicians can just barge in and say "the rules don't apply to me because I'm popular"? Because that's how you don't get stable democracies. What you get is Trump, or the Red Brigades, or the Brown Shirts running things to the ground. Because the motto of those orgs is "one man, one vote... One last time"
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]