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No downvotes from me, but where do you think the free will lives? What mechanism produces it? What about that mechanism, if not purely stochastic, is not pred

No downvotes from me, but where do you think the free will lives? What mechanism produces it? What about that mechanism, if not purely stochastic, is not predictable? If free will can have a real measurable physical effect on this universe, then why can't it be isolated?

khimaros 1y ago
a random number generator in base reality? ;) really i'm just using this as a more accessible (to rational materialists) example of how processes can exist outside of our measurable physical reality.
- h0l0cube 1y ago
  > processes can exist outside of our measurable physical reality If it can't be measured in reality, how can it be relevant to reality? > a random number generator in base reality? How does randomness pertain to free will?
  - khimaros 1y ago
    they may have measurable effects in our physical reality, eg. the behavior of the individual and even be correlated with other physical processes. however, there may be hidden variables outside of our physical reality that are actually mechanizing the result. some such processes may be non-deterministic, which is why i used randomness as an example. what i'm implying is analogous but opposite to the concept of a philosophical zombie. there may be a ghost in the machine which no measurement can reveal.
    - h0l0cube 1y ago
      P-zombies, conceptually, actually have no ghost in the machine, but are indistinguishable from sentient beings. Sentience and free will are two different things. > they may have measurable effects in our physical reality If there’s something external that interfaces with the physical universe, such an externality could be observed. It’s strange that we haven’t found such a force. But if it were to exist, in some parallel universe, that external force would have its own mechanics and its own chain of causality – its own physics so to speak. Dualism doesn’t get you to free will, it just means there’s physics we can’t observe. (Or perhaps there’s some superset universe that interfaces with that universe, and then it’s still determinism or stochastic processes all the way down.)
sufehmi 1y ago
In some kind of quantum space probably. We still don't know so much, yet we claim so much.
- idiotsecant 1y ago
  Yes, for example we make wild claims like 'biological sentience is incomputable'
  - nipah 1y ago
    Or that it is, like most people working in projects like those believe without first proving.
- GoblinSlayer 1y ago
  If you want randomness, why not flip a coin? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twoface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twoface
- h0l0cube 1y ago
  Even quantum space can be described by both deterministic and stochastic elements. The stochastic elements of quantum uncertainty are about as much free will as a PRNG – though even more predictable as they don't have a flat statistical distribution. And there are also known exploitable and predictable mechanisms behind quantum mechanics (emphasis added), so much so, that they can be leveraged for computation. I think when most people say free will they mean dualism, in that there's some sentience in the spiritual plane that directs their bodies in the physical plane. But if this spiritual plane has no observable effect on the physical plane, it's completely incompatible with free will. And if it is observable, then it is indeed a measurable part of physical reality, but yet we haven't measured it - not even stochastic effects (which can still be observed statistically). Sabine Hossenfelder has a much better informed take on this, and it's worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5FMj5D9zU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5FMj5D9zU Also of interest, a study where fMRI readings were used to predict a persons decisions well in advance of them executing the decision. The success rate was only 60%, but still better than chance, and this study was way back in 2008: > fMRI machine learning of brain activity (multivariate pattern analysis) has been used to predict the user choice of a button (left/right) up to 7 seconds before their reported will of having done so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Neuronal_prediction_of_free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Neur...
monero-xmr 1y ago
I believe our consciousness is separate from our physical body. This metaphysical line of thinking is embodied by “idealism” which is opposed to “physicalism” or materialism. I am also not a determinist and I don’t believe you can replay the universe from first principles and get the exact same timeline. I’m also religious and I believe in God (and the Holy Trinity) in the core of my being.

khimaros 1y ago

a random number generator in base reality? ;) really i'm just using this as a more accessible (to rational materialists) example of how processes can exist outside of our measurable physical reality.

h0l0cube 1y ago
> processes can exist outside of our measurable physical reality If it can't be measured in reality, how can it be relevant to reality? > a random number generator in base reality? How does randomness pertain to free will?
- khimaros 1y ago
  they may have measurable effects in our physical reality, eg. the behavior of the individual and even be correlated with other physical processes. however, there may be hidden variables outside of our physical reality that are actually mechanizing the result. some such processes may be non-deterministic, which is why i used randomness as an example. what i'm implying is analogous but opposite to the concept of a philosophical zombie. there may be a ghost in the machine which no measurement can reveal.
  - h0l0cube 1y ago
    P-zombies, conceptually, actually have no ghost in the machine, but are indistinguishable from sentient beings. Sentience and free will are two different things. > they may have measurable effects in our physical reality If there’s something external that interfaces with the physical universe, such an externality could be observed. It’s strange that we haven’t found such a force. But if it were to exist, in some parallel universe, that external force would have its own mechanics and its own chain of causality – its own physics so to speak. Dualism doesn’t get you to free will, it just means there’s physics we can’t observe. (Or perhaps there’s some superset universe that interfaces with that universe, and then it’s still determinism or stochastic processes all the way down.)

sufehmi 1y ago

In some kind of quantum space probably. We still don't know so much, yet we claim so much.

idiotsecant 1y ago
Yes, for example we make wild claims like 'biological sentience is incomputable'
- nipah 1y ago
  Or that it is, like most people working in projects like those believe without first proving.
GoblinSlayer 1y ago
If you want randomness, why not flip a coin? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twoface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twoface
h0l0cube 1y ago
Even quantum space can be described by both deterministic and stochastic elements. The stochastic elements of quantum uncertainty are about as much free will as a PRNG – though even more predictable as they don't have a flat statistical distribution. And there are also known exploitable and predictable mechanisms behind quantum mechanics (emphasis added), so much so, that they can be leveraged for computation. I think when most people say free will they mean dualism, in that there's some sentience in the spiritual plane that directs their bodies in the physical plane. But if this spiritual plane has no observable effect on the physical plane, it's completely incompatible with free will. And if it is observable, then it is indeed a measurable part of physical reality, but yet we haven't measured it - not even stochastic effects (which can still be observed statistically). Sabine Hossenfelder has a much better informed take on this, and it's worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5FMj5D9zU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5FMj5D9zU Also of interest, a study where fMRI readings were used to predict a persons decisions well in advance of them executing the decision. The success rate was only 60%, but still better than chance, and this study was way back in 2008: > fMRI machine learning of brain activity (multivariate pattern analysis) has been used to predict the user choice of a button (left/right) up to 7 seconds before their reported will of having done so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Neuronal_prediction_of_free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Neur...

monero-xmr 1y ago

I believe our consciousness is separate from our physical body. This metaphysical line of thinking is embodied by “idealism” which is opposed to “physicalism” or materialism. I am also not a determinist and I don’t believe you can replay the universe from first principles and get the exact same timeline. I’m also religious and I believe in God (and the Holy Trinity) in the core of my being.