6 ms·

America, duh

by kman82 1y ago

America, duh

ajross 1y ago
Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point, where the administration is (literally!) disappearing them by revoking visas and arresting them without legal recourse. Non-citizens are one intemperate op-ed away from living the rest of their days in a Louisiana jail without trial. That sounds so ridiculous that you'd think it had to be hyperbole, but it's literally happening now. No, the days of the US being a mecca for global tech workers are over.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point My German boss just moved to the US. He really loves it there. He said he's also getting better healthcare for his child which has some rare form of autism or something, at which only the US has invested into research and cures at this point. Edit: why the salty replies?
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Welp that funding is likely gone. Hope they already discovered everything his son needs. Historically yes, the US has been the global leader for more “bespoke” medical needs.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    > My German boss just moved to the US. he's also getting better healthcare for his child This "better healthcare" will be true in the USA, for about 1 or 2% of top earners.
    - Argonaut998 1y ago
      I have to wait 3 weeks for a doctor appointment in my utopian European nation. I also have to pay for it since I earn too much money after being taxed >40% on my slightly-over-us-median income. Thankfully I’m not in need of dental surgery, else I would be waiting 4 years. I doubt anywhere in the USA is that bad. To me it looks like health insurance is baked into the cost of living. Obviously bad for poor people and should be addressed but I imagine anyone on the median wage should be fine?
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Not sure why you're being downvoted for sharing your experience and opinion. Nobody even bother to comment on it.
  - Philip-J-Fry 1y ago
    It's the classic case of the US being great when you've got a lot of money. Which is why a company full of highly skilled engineers threatening to relocate to the US isn't an empty threat. These are exactly the kinds of people who would have a pretty good life there, so I doubt they'd find any issue bringing many along.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Doesn't have to be the US. Switzerland is also a magnet for top companies and skilled people, especially the German ones, due to language and culture similitudes in some regions but with less taxes and red tape and higher standard of living. And of course highly skilled people who work hard, want to be in a place that compensates them highly for their efforts, otherwise what's the point of busting your ass for decades if you're gonna be getting the same mediocre quality services as people on minimum wage?
  - kiicia 1y ago
    clearly he was planning this move ahead of time with one goal in mind, that is to get specialized help for his kid thanks to amounts of money he has of course he would be happy with this move even if "normal" people would burn around him because he and his family is shielded and have gold parachute that allows him to go back to eu within hours
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      People working hard their whole lives in order to provide a better than average life for their own families and children? WOW, how dare they?!
  - arunabha 1y ago
    No doubt this is true in this specific case, but does this example extrapolate to the general case? The original point was that given the US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech, would the average highly qualified immigrant be more or less predisposed to want to immigrate. This is made worse by the fact that there appears to be no goal to all this beyond intimidation and chilling effect. Even if you deported every single Palestine protester it would make a zero impact on the stated policy goals of mass deportation of illegal immigrants. None of the recent high profile protester cases were in the country illegally. They simply stated their opinion, and in one case, in an op ed for the student newspaper. Note that the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers. So, when a smart software engineer in Europe sees that the current US president is willing to crush the most fundamental of civil liberties to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants, which will in no way do anything to meet his stated policy objectives, what do you think that engineer is likely to conclude?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech Source for such claims please? German and UK governments are even more authoritarian on free speech. You can get arrested for a tweet insulting a politician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc >the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers So did Germany and Austria and most of western EU. They were buddy-buddy to Putin in the past for their gas, and now they're buddy-buddy with Azerbaijan who's slaughtering Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh because EU needs their gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict >to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants Source for such claims please? How many skilled legal immigrants have been deported or subject to illegal government oppression?
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        > Source for such claims please? There have been many such cases in the news recently: Mahmoud Khalil, Rumeysa Ozturk, Yunseo Chung, Momodou Taal... According to US Sectary of State Marco Rubio, the Trump administration is currently seeking to deport over 300 students, purely for criticizing Israel. None of them has been accused of any crime. The Trump administration calls anyone who protests against Israel a Hamas supporter and terrorist, cancels their visa, and tries to deport them.
- togetheragainor 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - pavlov 1y ago
    The thing about fascism is that you don’t actually have to be guilty of the things they claim because they’ll just deport you or jail you regardless. Europeans are getting interrogated in US airport detention rooms over liking tweets critical of Trump. If they choose to make an example of you, they will, and it doesn’t matter if your visa or green card was in perfect order. They’re supported by an endless supply of online bootlickers who will believe and parrot any justification given. “Of course we sent this Czech citizen to El Salvador in chains, look at his middle name!”
    - togetheragainor 1y ago
      > Europeans are getting interrogated in US airport detention rooms over liking tweets critical of Trump Oh no, they’re being asked about tweets? Is that worse than the UK arresting its citizens in the middle of the night over their tweets? Or threatening to extradite Americans over their tweets? Thank god America has Europe to look to as a bastion of liberal democracy.
      - pavlov 1y ago
        You’re free to believe whatever you saw on Fox News, but whataboutism isn’t terribly interesting.
        throwaway173738 1y ago
        In fact it just leaves everyone free to be their absolute worst.
        togetheragainor 1y ago
        It’s interesting because many Europeans would be safer from fascist government overreach in the U.S. than they presently are in Europe, despite what you saw on MSNBC.
- Argonaut998 1y ago
  I’m trying to move there. And that is a hyperbole. It’s a tiny amount of cases being reported by the media as being de facto what’s happening. It’s the same with all of the so-called travel warnings issued by some Western countries. The “warnings” were literally just to have your paperwork in order I.e., obey the law and don’t overstay your visa. It’s far more strict than previous admins but certainly nothing that would deter me from moving there (just yet) at least. I don’t think Americans have any idea how good they have it under any administration, especially if they are in tech. The lauded benefits of Europe are grossly exaggerated for the most part.
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    Tiny is not zero. Our founding fathers believed that it was better for guilty people to go free than for one innocent to be detained.
    - Argonaut998 1y ago
      Well it depends on what you are referring to. If it’s people not being allowed into the US for various reasons I don’t think that has anything to do with the constitution. But yeah obviously these people being rounded up and being sent to Ecuador and whatnot definitely seems to fly in the face of the founding fathers
  - ajross 1y ago
    > obey the law and don’t overstay your visa Khalil and Ozturk broke zero laws and had permanent residency. They are now in jail essentially forever simply because the administration doesn't like what they were saying.
    - Argonaut998 1y ago
      Agree completely. I was referring more about entry to the US in the first place. I suppose the current admin doesn’t believe the first amendment applies to non-citizens. I think I saw that judges are trying to block it. Do they have a point? Does the second amendment apply for non-citizens?
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  I think you overestimate that. In the end, I'm sure there will be still a lot of people willing to go, who maybe ignore politics and so on. Salaries in USA are just that much higher, especially if you're an expert in your field.
- pembrook 1y ago
  It’s amusing that you acknowledge your comment is hysterical hyperbole preemptively as if that will defeat any rebuttal. Guess I’ll just take your word for it then! The truth is you still have a far greater chance of getting in trouble for saying the wrong thing in most of Europe than you do anywhere in the US. Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes. Maybe one day the 600 million people in Europe will decide to start finally integrating their countries for real and collaborate with each other on building and innovating like the Americans and Chinese. Until then, disjointed euro micro states are sitting ducks for getting stripped of their best talent and companies.
  - matthewmacleod 1y ago
    God you are both just awful at making a compelling argument.
    - pembrook 1y ago
      So you find ad hominem attacks with zero points of discussion or argument to be more compelling?
  - Swoerd 1y ago
    [dead]
  - jltsiren 1y ago
    > Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes. I don't really understand why people make claims like that. To me it's obvious that the vast majority of people are not particularly motivated by money. They would like to have more money, but once they have reached the standard of living common in developed countries, they are not willing to make the kind of life choices that would give them more money. Finnish nurses are a good example. They would have a better standard of living in Norway. As Finnish citizens, they have a subjective right to live and work there, even stronger than in the EU. The language would be easy to learn. The culture and the society are very similar. And it's close to Finland, making it easy to visit your friends and family any time. But few nurses actually move there, because most people need better reasons than money for moving to another country.
- MITSardine 1y ago
  Are you talking about the Turkish grad student at Tufts who got arrested and deported to Louisiana recently?
- mardifoufs 1y ago
  What? You realise that even in say, Europe, for example in France, parties like Le Front National get almost half of the votes? Germany also has a lot of voters for their own extreme right wing parties. I know it might seem weird when you are in a hive mind but a lot of people do agree with whatever trump does. Even in places where you'd expect them not to. I'm in Morocco for example right now and most people either I've talked to are either ambivalent or slightly like Trump (or dislike him due to his position on Gaza, but Biden was even worse in terms of total inaction). But I won't blame people for thinking that whatever is popular on Reddit or Blue sky actually is a majority opinion, just because of how insanely one sided and dramatic those places and people who spend a lot of time there tend to be. It's really brain rot inducing.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    This is what people mean by "polarisation". Parties (and party members) are less defined by what they stand for and more, A LOT more, by that they hate each other. On fox news this is easy to see ("Far left threatens European peace treaty ..."), but in reality you see similar things on the right part ("The brazen hypocrisy of the right's Tesla protest outrage ...") Both parties are trying to demonize each other. Biden did not fuck up the country with communism, obviously. But Trump is not hitler ... Meanwhile I've seen democrats spit on other democrats because they were pro-Israel. It's not just on the right. And then you read about republicans responding to someone's wife getting deported by stating she deserved it. Fucking hell, where are we going? People need to come together again. And yes, Trump is not making that easy, but it is the way forward. Here I am. I am pro-Israel, I can even defend Netanyahu (well, his actions in a war defending Israel, where I have issues is him turning authoritarian). I am pro-Ukraine, pro-EU-US cooperation. I am anti-deportation (isn't everyone?) and pro-science. I am anti-mass-layoffs in government. I DO see the democrats as the party of the rich (WHY are they doing this btw? Are these people morons? If Trump manages to get the poor on his side, even with lies, and the democrats keep doing their poor=dumb thing, even when it's true, the democrats will lose every time). I was an Obama democrat (and since didn't vote). Where should I go, if I don't want to be attacked.
werrett 1y ago
Did you even read the article? ASML is chaffing against American-led export regulations. The Trump government is still very keen on restricting China’s ability to make cutting edge chips. The threat to move is probably empty. But it’s not a threat to move to the place that is generating their head winds.

America, duh

by kman82 1y ago

America, duh

Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point, where the administration is (literally!) disappearing them by revoking visas and arresting them without legal recourse. Non-citizens are one intemperate op-ed away from living the rest of their days in a Louisiana jail without trial. That sounds so ridiculous that you'd think it had to be hyperbole, but it's literally happening now. No, the days of the US being a mecca for global tech workers are over.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point My German boss just moved to the US. He really loves it there. He said he's also getting better healthcare for his child which has some rare form of autism or something, at which only the US has invested into research and cures at this point. Edit: why the salty replies?
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Welp that funding is likely gone. Hope they already discovered everything his son needs. Historically yes, the US has been the global leader for more “bespoke” medical needs.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  > My German boss just moved to the US. he's also getting better healthcare for his child This "better healthcare" will be true in the USA, for about 1 or 2% of top earners.
  - Argonaut998 1y ago
    I have to wait 3 weeks for a doctor appointment in my utopian European nation. I also have to pay for it since I earn too much money after being taxed >40% on my slightly-over-us-median income. Thankfully I’m not in need of dental surgery, else I would be waiting 4 years. I doubt anywhere in the USA is that bad. To me it looks like health insurance is baked into the cost of living. Obviously bad for poor people and should be addressed but I imagine anyone on the median wage should be fine?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Not sure why you're being downvoted for sharing your experience and opinion. Nobody even bother to comment on it.
- Philip-J-Fry 1y ago
  It's the classic case of the US being great when you've got a lot of money. Which is why a company full of highly skilled engineers threatening to relocate to the US isn't an empty threat. These are exactly the kinds of people who would have a pretty good life there, so I doubt they'd find any issue bringing many along.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Doesn't have to be the US. Switzerland is also a magnet for top companies and skilled people, especially the German ones, due to language and culture similitudes in some regions but with less taxes and red tape and higher standard of living. And of course highly skilled people who work hard, want to be in a place that compensates them highly for their efforts, otherwise what's the point of busting your ass for decades if you're gonna be getting the same mediocre quality services as people on minimum wage?
- kiicia 1y ago
  clearly he was planning this move ahead of time with one goal in mind, that is to get specialized help for his kid thanks to amounts of money he has of course he would be happy with this move even if "normal" people would burn around him because he and his family is shielded and have gold parachute that allows him to go back to eu within hours
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    People working hard their whole lives in order to provide a better than average life for their own families and children? WOW, how dare they?!
- arunabha 1y ago
  No doubt this is true in this specific case, but does this example extrapolate to the general case? The original point was that given the US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech, would the average highly qualified immigrant be more or less predisposed to want to immigrate. This is made worse by the fact that there appears to be no goal to all this beyond intimidation and chilling effect. Even if you deported every single Palestine protester it would make a zero impact on the stated policy goals of mass deportation of illegal immigrants. None of the recent high profile protester cases were in the country illegally. They simply stated their opinion, and in one case, in an op ed for the student newspaper. Note that the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers. So, when a smart software engineer in Europe sees that the current US president is willing to crush the most fundamental of civil liberties to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants, which will in no way do anything to meet his stated policy objectives, what do you think that engineer is likely to conclude?
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech Source for such claims please? German and UK governments are even more authoritarian on free speech. You can get arrested for a tweet insulting a politician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc >the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers So did Germany and Austria and most of western EU. They were buddy-buddy to Putin in the past for their gas, and now they're buddy-buddy with Azerbaijan who's slaughtering Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh because EU needs their gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict >to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants Source for such claims please? How many skilled legal immigrants have been deported or subject to illegal government oppression?
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      > Source for such claims please? There have been many such cases in the news recently: Mahmoud Khalil, Rumeysa Ozturk, Yunseo Chung, Momodou Taal... According to US Sectary of State Marco Rubio, the Trump administration is currently seeking to deport over 300 students, purely for criticizing Israel. None of them has been accused of any crime. The Trump administration calls anyone who protests against Israel a Hamas supporter and terrorist, cancels their visa, and tries to deport them.
togetheragainor 1y ago
[flagged]
- pavlov 1y ago
  The thing about fascism is that you don’t actually have to be guilty of the things they claim because they’ll just deport you or jail you regardless. Europeans are getting interrogated in US airport detention rooms over liking tweets critical of Trump. If they choose to make an example of you, they will, and it doesn’t matter if your visa or green card was in perfect order. They’re supported by an endless supply of online bootlickers who will believe and parrot any justification given. “Of course we sent this Czech citizen to El Salvador in chains, look at his middle name!”
  - togetheragainor 1y ago
    > Europeans are getting interrogated in US airport detention rooms over liking tweets critical of Trump Oh no, they’re being asked about tweets? Is that worse than the UK arresting its citizens in the middle of the night over their tweets? Or threatening to extradite Americans over their tweets? Thank god America has Europe to look to as a bastion of liberal democracy.
    - pavlov 1y ago
      You’re free to believe whatever you saw on Fox News, but whataboutism isn’t terribly interesting.
      - throwaway173738 1y ago
        In fact it just leaves everyone free to be their absolute worst.
      - togetheragainor 1y ago
        It’s interesting because many Europeans would be safer from fascist government overreach in the U.S. than they presently are in Europe, despite what you saw on MSNBC.
Argonaut998 1y ago
I’m trying to move there. And that is a hyperbole. It’s a tiny amount of cases being reported by the media as being de facto what’s happening. It’s the same with all of the so-called travel warnings issued by some Western countries. The “warnings” were literally just to have your paperwork in order I.e., obey the law and don’t overstay your visa. It’s far more strict than previous admins but certainly nothing that would deter me from moving there (just yet) at least. I don’t think Americans have any idea how good they have it under any administration, especially if they are in tech. The lauded benefits of Europe are grossly exaggerated for the most part.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  Tiny is not zero. Our founding fathers believed that it was better for guilty people to go free than for one innocent to be detained.
  - Argonaut998 1y ago
    Well it depends on what you are referring to. If it’s people not being allowed into the US for various reasons I don’t think that has anything to do with the constitution. But yeah obviously these people being rounded up and being sent to Ecuador and whatnot definitely seems to fly in the face of the founding fathers
- ajross 1y ago
  > obey the law and don’t overstay your visa Khalil and Ozturk broke zero laws and had permanent residency. They are now in jail essentially forever simply because the administration doesn't like what they were saying.
  - Argonaut998 1y ago
    Agree completely. I was referring more about entry to the US in the first place. I suppose the current admin doesn’t believe the first amendment applies to non-citizens. I think I saw that judges are trying to block it. Do they have a point? Does the second amendment apply for non-citizens?
StefanBatory 1y ago
I think you overestimate that. In the end, I'm sure there will be still a lot of people willing to go, who maybe ignore politics and so on. Salaries in USA are just that much higher, especially if you're an expert in your field.
pembrook 1y ago
It’s amusing that you acknowledge your comment is hysterical hyperbole preemptively as if that will defeat any rebuttal. Guess I’ll just take your word for it then! The truth is you still have a far greater chance of getting in trouble for saying the wrong thing in most of Europe than you do anywhere in the US. Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes. Maybe one day the 600 million people in Europe will decide to start finally integrating their countries for real and collaborate with each other on building and innovating like the Americans and Chinese. Until then, disjointed euro micro states are sitting ducks for getting stripped of their best talent and companies.
- matthewmacleod 1y ago
  God you are both just awful at making a compelling argument.
  - pembrook 1y ago
    So you find ad hominem attacks with zero points of discussion or argument to be more compelling?
- Swoerd 1y ago
  [dead]
- jltsiren 1y ago
  > Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes. I don't really understand why people make claims like that. To me it's obvious that the vast majority of people are not particularly motivated by money. They would like to have more money, but once they have reached the standard of living common in developed countries, they are not willing to make the kind of life choices that would give them more money. Finnish nurses are a good example. They would have a better standard of living in Norway. As Finnish citizens, they have a subjective right to live and work there, even stronger than in the EU. The language would be easy to learn. The culture and the society are very similar. And it's close to Finland, making it easy to visit your friends and family any time. But few nurses actually move there, because most people need better reasons than money for moving to another country.
MITSardine 1y ago
Are you talking about the Turkish grad student at Tufts who got arrested and deported to Louisiana recently?
mardifoufs 1y ago
What? You realise that even in say, Europe, for example in France, parties like Le Front National get almost half of the votes? Germany also has a lot of voters for their own extreme right wing parties. I know it might seem weird when you are in a hive mind but a lot of people do agree with whatever trump does. Even in places where you'd expect them not to. I'm in Morocco for example right now and most people either I've talked to are either ambivalent or slightly like Trump (or dislike him due to his position on Gaza, but Biden was even worse in terms of total inaction). But I won't blame people for thinking that whatever is popular on Reddit or Blue sky actually is a majority opinion, just because of how insanely one sided and dramatic those places and people who spend a lot of time there tend to be. It's really brain rot inducing.
- spwa4 1y ago
  This is what people mean by "polarisation". Parties (and party members) are less defined by what they stand for and more, A LOT more, by that they hate each other. On fox news this is easy to see ("Far left threatens European peace treaty ..."), but in reality you see similar things on the right part ("The brazen hypocrisy of the right's Tesla protest outrage ...") Both parties are trying to demonize each other. Biden did not fuck up the country with communism, obviously. But Trump is not hitler ... Meanwhile I've seen democrats spit on other democrats because they were pro-Israel. It's not just on the right. And then you read about republicans responding to someone's wife getting deported by stating she deserved it. Fucking hell, where are we going? People need to come together again. And yes, Trump is not making that easy, but it is the way forward. Here I am. I am pro-Israel, I can even defend Netanyahu (well, his actions in a war defending Israel, where I have issues is him turning authoritarian). I am pro-Ukraine, pro-EU-US cooperation. I am anti-deportation (isn't everyone?) and pro-science. I am anti-mass-layoffs in government. I DO see the democrats as the party of the rich (WHY are they doing this btw? Are these people morons? If Trump manages to get the poor on his side, even with lies, and the democrats keep doing their poor=dumb thing, even when it's true, the democrats will lose every time). I was an Obama democrat (and since didn't vote). Where should I go, if I don't want to be attacked.

werrett 1y ago

Did you even read the article? ASML is chaffing against American-led export regulations. The Trump government is still very keen on restricting China’s ability to make cutting edge chips. The threat to move is probably empty. But it’s not a threat to move to the place that is generating their head winds.