7 ms·

"the Zooms don't show up" Jamie Dimon

arcmechanica 2y ago
pay anyone $39m/year and they'll come into the office too. This is just FUD to justifying offshoring
Finnucane 2y ago
Is creativity in banking really that important? Creativity in banking gave us the housing bubble. And the dot-com bubble. And redlining.
- laughingcurve 2y ago
  Creativity (the ability to form novel ideas, use imagination, engage in investigation, etc.) is a critical component of many workplaces, including banking and finance. Creativity is not a dirty word, nor is it a positive one. Creativity can be used for positive and negative ends. Creativity in finance brought the CFPB, Dodd-Frank, Glass-Stegall... along with De-regulation, Free Trade, or Laissez Faire.
  - GuinansEyebrows 2y ago
    “Banking” being the operative concept here, I think, moreso than “creativity”
  - Finnucane 2y ago
    The cfpb, Dodd-Frank,glass-steagall were bureaucratic responses to ‘creative’ (criminal) banking.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  No, and it is highly ironic that sanctimonious Dimon is complaining about others’ work ethic when he is where he is only because his employer is deemed too big to fail. Let’s see him do his “difficult” job without a blank check from US taxpayers.
daviddever23box 2y ago
The same argument was made with regard to the consumer retail banking experience when ATMs were introduced in 1967! Asynchronous remote transactions are commonplace today; this is all a smokescreen for over-leveraged commercial real estate interests held by major US financial institutions.
milesrout 2y ago
Is there a better source for this story? This is very tabloid.
- bfeynman 2y ago
  In the amount of time you spent writing this comment you could have just done cursory google search and got literally right to the leaked audio recordings everywhere: https://www.barrons.com/articles/jamie-dimon-leaked-audio-jpmorgan-return-to-office-7064ee64 https://www.barrons.com/articles/jamie-dimon-leaked-audio-jp...
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
We have some really phoning it in zoom folks we've hired who do their job semi ok but are just awful and don't contribute to culture, are super dialed out. I don't want to totally damn them, because they have families and lives and other things going. But I've had a number of coworkers tell me they have re-adapted their code review to say near nothing (it won't be well received) and to otherwise end their own good-culture practices to adapt to really hostile remote culture. The thing is, this isn't at all zoom. This isn't remote. It's companies that are just shit poor bad about letting bottom up knowledge trickle up. It's about terrible management that has made being in touch with their workforce hard. And in most cases, that's not the workforce: it's the management, it's the company. It's easier to do this job of running a company in person, to spy & get information. But it's your laziness, it's your being awful at your job, that makes you rely on this in-touch layer.
- Uehreka 2y ago
  > We have some really dialing it in zoom folks we've hired Do you mean “phoning it in”? Being “dialed in” and “phoning it in” are opposites, it was a little unclear which you meant from context.
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    Updated, yes.
- gotoeleven 2y ago
  How do you get people to stop looking at their fucking phones during zoom meetings? Sure if we had a magic perfect management fairy that could sprinkle perfect management skills on the managers maybe people would be better at working remotely but people are mostly lazy and will mostly do whatever they can get away with. And its way easier to get away with looking at your fucking phone during a zoom meeting than an in person meeting.
  - harry8 2y ago
    How do you get management to take their job seriously? Sure if we had magic perfect meeting dust but people are mostly lazy…
gedy 2y ago
People fuck around at the office - a lot. Staring at phones, videos on the toilet, etc. That's lack of work ethic, not from location.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  I used to play a MMO on my phone, and I stopped because my opponents were playing 16 hours a day. They would run it at work of course. I swear to you that one of my teammates said hold on I have to walk into a meeting but once I settle in I can resume with us
Nursie 2y ago
I enjoyed the year I consulted at JPMC, they have some sharp people, and on the surface of it, who am I to criticise the boss of such a successful company? OTOH… I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted. But… I haven’t set foot in an office for five years now and I’m as productive as I ever was. Possibly more. As for his “people are distracted during meetings”, perhaps there ought to be more focus on only holding necessary meetings, rather than dragging people in when there’s no reason for them to be there and nothing to hold their interest? In my experience that’s the cause of a lot of the snark and slacking.
- gedy 2y ago
  > people are distracted during meetings It feels like he's just old and pining for days gone by - in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too. I dislike that as well, but that's not a WFH issue.
  - PeterHolzwarth 2y ago
    Where I worked in the past, those people would get a private reprimand after that meeting.
  - dkarl 2y ago
    > in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too I've worked at a variety of places with a variety of problems, but I've never seen that kind of rudeness be widespread or persistent. It was corrected in different ways depending on the company culture, but it was corrected.
    - gedy 2y ago
      I guess I'm unlucky, though the companies were full of young people which might be a factor
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  > I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted. I agree with this, but I didn't grow up with a phone in my hand. I didn't have a mobile phone until I was about 30 years old and I didn't have a smartphone until I was in my 40s. I can't work well with people over remote calls, I hate Zoom and desktop sharing, don't like slack or teams. I find it so much more efficient to sit with another person or small group if there is a group task to be completed or a group decision to be made. That said, unnecessary meetings are a real thing, have been a problem in large orgs forever, and Zoom doesn't fix that. Might make it worse, as invites are not limited by the physical size of the room.
foinker 2y ago
Work is a means to an end of living an enjoyable life, and most tech/finance jobs in the US are overpaid, unimportant nonsense.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
smetj 2y ago
Its not remote work itself. ... that just amplifies the inability of some people to "see the work" and to self-organize.
mojomark 2y ago
Does anyone find it strange that this argument is always boolean? (Child of the late 70's/early 80's here) At my current and prior company everyone enjoys the freedom of adulthood. Of course there are massive productivity benefits to working in person at times. Of course there are massive benefits to working from home at times. Not productive in your current role? Move on or you will be moved on. Pretty straight forward. What's so
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] Some earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43032090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43032090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43040828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43040828
asimpleusecase 2y ago
We have a small team that is remote by design. Yet everyone has commented that those rare times we can gather see massive uplift in productivity. For us being in a central location is not possible. But for companies with an office building I can see the human dynamic of being together is very powerful. Even with all the chat, trackers, conference tools etc “context” is the hardest thing to do remotely.
- alanfranz 2y ago
  Honest question: in which way does productivity improve? Is that measurable? Or is that just a well-being feeling for meeting colleagues IRL? In day to day remote work do you work together, or is it fully async with some chat-only meetings?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    My teams velocity increased when we started doing hybrid instead of full remote. Of course thats not proof of anything as our jira points arent objective but it definitely lines up with feeling more productive. We were pretty async while remote. I dont think remote without productivity loss is impossible, but you need very skilled managers and most companies dont have those.
    - rcarmo 2y ago
      You had less meetings.
    - alanfranz 2y ago
      Personal opinion: I think more sync work is needed even when remote. Making all work async makes things harder, not working remotely.
- meowfly 2y ago
  I'm in the same situation and I agree that when we are together we do collaborate and plan better. On Zoom, people tend to set their mic on mute and very passively engage. However, once we have to actually execute, being in the office is a negative. In the office, it is impossible for me to put my head down and work for a couple hours without someone showing up at my desk with a question. On Slack, I can set dnd with a status message and flow.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
I think the problem is too many unnecessary meetings rather than remote work.

pay anyone $39m/year and they'll come into the office too. This is just FUD to justifying offshoring

Is creativity in banking really that important? Creativity in banking gave us the housing bubble. And the dot-com bubble. And redlining.

laughingcurve 2y ago
Creativity (the ability to form novel ideas, use imagination, engage in investigation, etc.) is a critical component of many workplaces, including banking and finance. Creativity is not a dirty word, nor is it a positive one. Creativity can be used for positive and negative ends. Creativity in finance brought the CFPB, Dodd-Frank, Glass-Stegall... along with De-regulation, Free Trade, or Laissez Faire.
- GuinansEyebrows 2y ago
  “Banking” being the operative concept here, I think, moreso than “creativity”
- Finnucane 2y ago
  The cfpb, Dodd-Frank,glass-steagall were bureaucratic responses to ‘creative’ (criminal) banking.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
No, and it is highly ironic that sanctimonious Dimon is complaining about others’ work ethic when he is where he is only because his employer is deemed too big to fail. Let’s see him do his “difficult” job without a blank check from US taxpayers.

daviddever23box 2y ago

The same argument was made with regard to the consumer retail banking experience when ATMs were introduced in 1967! Asynchronous remote transactions are commonplace today; this is all a smokescreen for over-leveraged commercial real estate interests held by major US financial institutions.

milesrout 2y ago

Is there a better source for this story? This is very tabloid.

bfeynman 2y ago
In the amount of time you spent writing this comment you could have just done cursory google search and got literally right to the leaked audio recordings everywhere: https://www.barrons.com/articles/jamie-dimon-leaked-audio-jpmorgan-return-to-office-7064ee64 https://www.barrons.com/articles/jamie-dimon-leaked-audio-jp...

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

We have some really phoning it in zoom folks we've hired who do their job semi ok but are just awful and don't contribute to culture, are super dialed out. I don't want to totally damn them, because they have families and lives and other things going. But I've had a number of coworkers tell me they have re-adapted their code review to say near nothing (it won't be well received) and to otherwise end their own good-culture practices to adapt to really hostile remote culture. The thing is, this isn't at all zoom. This isn't remote. It's companies that are just shit poor bad about letting bottom up knowledge trickle up. It's about terrible management that has made being in touch with their workforce hard. And in most cases, that's not the workforce: it's the management, it's the company. It's easier to do this job of running a company in person, to spy & get information. But it's your laziness, it's your being awful at your job, that makes you rely on this in-touch layer.

Uehreka 2y ago
> We have some really dialing it in zoom folks we've hired Do you mean “phoning it in”? Being “dialed in” and “phoning it in” are opposites, it was a little unclear which you meant from context.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Updated, yes.
gotoeleven 2y ago
How do you get people to stop looking at their fucking phones during zoom meetings? Sure if we had a magic perfect management fairy that could sprinkle perfect management skills on the managers maybe people would be better at working remotely but people are mostly lazy and will mostly do whatever they can get away with. And its way easier to get away with looking at your fucking phone during a zoom meeting than an in person meeting.
- harry8 2y ago
  How do you get management to take their job seriously? Sure if we had magic perfect meeting dust but people are mostly lazy…

gedy 2y ago

People fuck around at the office - a lot. Staring at phones, videos on the toilet, etc. That's lack of work ethic, not from location.

readthenotes1 2y ago
I used to play a MMO on my phone, and I stopped because my opponents were playing 16 hours a day. They would run it at work of course. I swear to you that one of my teammates said hold on I have to walk into a meeting but once I settle in I can resume with us

Nursie 2y ago

I enjoyed the year I consulted at JPMC, they have some sharp people, and on the surface of it, who am I to criticise the boss of such a successful company? OTOH… I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted. But… I haven’t set foot in an office for five years now and I’m as productive as I ever was. Possibly more. As for his “people are distracted during meetings”, perhaps there ought to be more focus on only holding necessary meetings, rather than dragging people in when there’s no reason for them to be there and nothing to hold their interest? In my experience that’s the cause of a lot of the snark and slacking.

gedy 2y ago
> people are distracted during meetings It feels like he's just old and pining for days gone by - in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too. I dislike that as well, but that's not a WFH issue.
- PeterHolzwarth 2y ago
  Where I worked in the past, those people would get a private reprimand after that meeting.
- dkarl 2y ago
  > in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too I've worked at a variety of places with a variety of problems, but I've never seen that kind of rudeness be widespread or persistent. It was corrected in different ways depending on the company culture, but it was corrected.
  - gedy 2y ago
    I guess I'm unlucky, though the companies were full of young people which might be a factor
SoftTalker 2y ago
> I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted. I agree with this, but I didn't grow up with a phone in my hand. I didn't have a mobile phone until I was about 30 years old and I didn't have a smartphone until I was in my 40s. I can't work well with people over remote calls, I hate Zoom and desktop sharing, don't like slack or teams. I find it so much more efficient to sit with another person or small group if there is a group task to be completed or a group decision to be made. That said, unnecessary meetings are a real thing, have been a problem in large orgs forever, and Zoom doesn't fix that. Might make it worse, as invites are not limited by the physical size of the room.

foinker 2y ago

Work is a means to an end of living an enjoyable life, and most tech/finance jobs in the US are overpaid, unimportant nonsense.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

smetj 2y ago

Its not remote work itself. ... that just amplifies the inability of some people to "see the work" and to self-organize.

mojomark 2y ago

Does anyone find it strange that this argument is always boolean? (Child of the late 70's/early 80's here) At my current and prior company everyone enjoys the freedom of adulthood. Of course there are massive productivity benefits to working in person at times. Of course there are massive benefits to working from home at times. Not productive in your current role? Move on or you will be moved on. Pretty straight forward. What's so

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] Some earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43032090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43032090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43040828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43040828

asimpleusecase 2y ago

We have a small team that is remote by design. Yet everyone has commented that those rare times we can gather see massive uplift in productivity. For us being in a central location is not possible. But for companies with an office building I can see the human dynamic of being together is very powerful. Even with all the chat, trackers, conference tools etc “context” is the hardest thing to do remotely.

alanfranz 2y ago
Honest question: in which way does productivity improve? Is that measurable? Or is that just a well-being feeling for meeting colleagues IRL? In day to day remote work do you work together, or is it fully async with some chat-only meetings?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  My teams velocity increased when we started doing hybrid instead of full remote. Of course thats not proof of anything as our jira points arent objective but it definitely lines up with feeling more productive. We were pretty async while remote. I dont think remote without productivity loss is impossible, but you need very skilled managers and most companies dont have those.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    You had less meetings.
  - alanfranz 2y ago
    Personal opinion: I think more sync work is needed even when remote. Making all work async makes things harder, not working remotely.
meowfly 2y ago
I'm in the same situation and I agree that when we are together we do collaborate and plan better. On Zoom, people tend to set their mic on mute and very passively engage. However, once we have to actually execute, being in the office is a negative. In the office, it is impossible for me to put my head down and work for a couple hours without someone showing up at my desk with a question. On Slack, I can set dnd with a status message and flow.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

I think the problem is too many unnecessary meetings rather than remote work.