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Figured I would here this cartoon here https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-societ

Figured I would here this cartoon here https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som... I talk with elderly people who do not have smartphones, and they tell me how difficult it is to navigate the modern world without them - doctor offices who want to send a text or MFA or the like. That we have a Google/Apple monopoly (or any nationwide Verizon/AT&T monopoly, with maybe one or two smaller players) is not much of a gotcha. I have more faith in the wisdom of the youth than your neoclassical theories of political economy. Of course virtually everything is an oligopoly nowadays. UMG, Sony, Warner own at least 65% of global music. Media, accounting, advertising, breakfast cereals, go down the list - most commodities are sold by an oligopoly of four or less companies. A theory of political economy where somehow consumers are "choosing" this system is what is bankruptcy, not the understanding of the working youth who resent this.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> they tell me how difficult it is to navigate the modern world without them - doctor offices who want to send a text or MFA or the like. But that just requires any cellphone that can text, and cell phones have been common for 25 years. Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone?
- whycome 2y ago
  They already have a landline phone and don’t need a cell. And then the options for dumb phones are slim.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    It took me one minute to find this https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go
    - whycome 2y ago
      That's a great example actually. What search terms led you there? Is there a category for nonsmartphone there? What does someone with limited knowledge of available options do there?
- simmonmt 2y ago
  I think the mismatch here is in your definition of smartphone. Expand the definition to include any feature beyond placing and receiving phone calls. I live right next door to takes perverse pride in his inability to text. It's a thing.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    No one would call an old phone with T9 texting a “smart phone”. Any phone out since at least 2002 could send and receive texts
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    This whole thread is basically "People who refuse to use technology that has been commonplace for 25 years". Not that they can't use that technology, or that it's unavailable (where I live there are a bunch of programs that give free cellphones to homeless people because it's such a valuable tool for them), but that they just refuse to. So? I mean bully for them I guess, but why should anyone else care?
- janalsncm 2y ago
  Uber and Lyft have displaced taxis in many places.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone? Try getting a job without a smartphone. Try getting government services without a computer. Try getting anything without a phone at all. You can't even walk into a physical brick-and-mortar business without them worrying about being defrauded. We built a high trust society and then threw away the trust part.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    > Try getting government services without a computer. That computer only needs a browser. Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed
    - inetknght 2y ago
      > > Try getting government services without a computer. > Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. Yup. I speak from experience. See my other reply [0] to you. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 > I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed Yup. I speak from experience. Government services and private utilities in Texas require email addresses. They require phone numbers. If you don't have a computer, you're definitely not going to get the emails in a timely fashion. If you don't have a phone, you're not going to receive phone calls or texts. Good luck to homeless! When you do have a computer, the government services offload your information to a private third party. You are required to do this to enroll in government services, and that private entity has its own license agreement whose jurisdiction is not even in Texas. If you have a disagreement, good luck getting to Idaho to file a dispute when you can't afford groceries. And all of your private information is made available to the lowest bidder.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        I looked at the various utility companies in Texas. They all have in office support. Are you really telling me that senior citizens are not getting utilities if they don’t have an email address? They require home phone numbers. And you are talking about owning a phone - not a smart phone. Here is a feature phone for you https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go
scarface_74 2y ago
And completely ignoring my second link. No one is forced to be on social media.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > No one is forced to be on social media. Not yet, perhaps. But try getting a job without a linkedin account. Try getting fair prices without an email address. For that matter, try getting email without a large-block mail provider and without getting your email server blocked or spammed. Try filing for unemployment without a SMS-capable phone or email address or signing away your rights to a non-government entity.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I’m sure you know that you can get a computer with a web browser that doesn’t run either Windows or MacOS and you can use Firefox? You can also get email from non BigTech providers. And there are plenty of non smart phones that can receive text messages.
    - inetknght 2y ago
      > I’m sure you know that you can get a computer with a web browser that doesn’t run either Windows or MacOS and you can use Firefox? You wanna put some money where your mouth is? In other Hacker News... Linux troubles: - [0.a] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839502 "Facebook ban on discussing Linux" - (bonus comment} [0.a.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848523 "Linux users are extremists according to the NSA (http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/nsa-linux-journal-extremist-forum-and-its-readers-get-flagged-extra-surveillance http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/nsa-linux-journal-extrem...)" - [0.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4063236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4063236 "Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices" - [0.c] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19224887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19224887 "Apple Is Blocking Linux User-Agent on appleid.apple.com" - [0.d] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197401 "Tell HN: Cloudflare is locking out Linux users" Firefox troubles: - [1.a] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34952279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34952279 "Ask HN: Is your Firefox blocked by Cloudflare in recent weeks? (e.g., Gitlab)" - [1.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31459258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31459258 "Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare" - [1.c] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42719865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42719865 "Google.com search now refusing to search for FF esr 128 without JavaScript" - [1.d] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938521 "Reddit Blocks Firefox" - [1.e] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33269391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33269391 "Firefox Private Mode blocked by T-Mobile" I could go on, but I won't. Suffice to say that yes you are right you "can" get such a computer. But there are very strong indications that won't always be true, and even having such a computer does not guarantee that you can access the services that you require. > And there are plenty of non smart phones that can receive text messages. What you mean is that there are plenty of non-smart phones that enable receiving of massive amounts of spam indistinguishable from spearphishing, and you even pay for that privilege. No. I do not accept the concept of being required to pay for that "service".
wisty 2y ago
A very smug comic. It misses 2 main points: 1. The system we have seems to have done a pretty good job, since people are choosing its products, rather than products created by another system. 2. A lot of people will rarely make a larger sacrifice than maybe quitting Twitter for a while despite spending a huge amount of time trying to preach to other people about how important their cause is. Which makes it seem like the noises they make are often just posturing.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > The system we have seems to have done a pretty good job, since people are choosing its products That's a weird phrase for "people do not have a choice about the products they use" > A lot of people will rarely make a larger sacrifice than maybe quitting Twitter for a while despite spending a huge amount of time trying to preach to other people Speak for yourself. I know plenty of people who want to disconnect but literally cannot because the services they're required to use also require connectivity. > Which makes it seem like the noises they make are often just posturing. Yes, that's the real evil isn't it? When you lack choices or recourse then talk is cheap.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    So which services require social media or any BigTech company?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - wisty 2y ago
    Talk is cheap, so it's easier than actions. If it was important enough to people, they'd act, even if there were some costs and inconveniences. That's the difference betwen people saying what yhey want, and their revealed preferences. Take climate change, something I suspect we agree on. People won't take individual action, and so it's no shock that they also won't vote for a politician who will promise to force them to take action, unless they are convinced that the costs to them will be small. Also, a hot take - climate change denial is partly virtue signalling by people who'd just rather have other people solve the problem but don't want to admit that. Yeah, big oil propaganda and a hostility between creationists and scientists is also a factor.
whimsicalism 2y ago
yeah i hate when i have to IG dm my doctor for an appointment

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> they tell me how difficult it is to navigate the modern world without them - doctor offices who want to send a text or MFA or the like. But that just requires any cellphone that can text, and cell phones have been common for 25 years. Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone?

whycome 2y ago
They already have a landline phone and don’t need a cell. And then the options for dumb phones are slim.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  It took me one minute to find this https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go
  - whycome 2y ago
    That's a great example actually. What search terms led you there? Is there a category for nonsmartphone there? What does someone with limited knowledge of available options do there?
simmonmt 2y ago
I think the mismatch here is in your definition of smartphone. Expand the definition to include any feature beyond placing and receiving phone calls. I live right next door to takes perverse pride in his inability to text. It's a thing.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  No one would call an old phone with T9 texting a “smart phone”. Any phone out since at least 2002 could send and receive texts
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  This whole thread is basically "People who refuse to use technology that has been commonplace for 25 years". Not that they can't use that technology, or that it's unavailable (where I live there are a bunch of programs that give free cellphones to homeless people because it's such a valuable tool for them), but that they just refuse to. So? I mean bully for them I guess, but why should anyone else care?
janalsncm 2y ago
Uber and Lyft have displaced taxis in many places.
inetknght 2y ago
> Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone? Try getting a job without a smartphone. Try getting government services without a computer. Try getting anything without a phone at all. You can't even walk into a physical brick-and-mortar business without them worrying about being defrauded. We built a high trust society and then threw away the trust part.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  > Try getting government services without a computer. That computer only needs a browser. Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed
  - inetknght 2y ago
    > > Try getting government services without a computer. > Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. Yup. I speak from experience. See my other reply [0] to you. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 > I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed Yup. I speak from experience. Government services and private utilities in Texas require email addresses. They require phone numbers. If you don't have a computer, you're definitely not going to get the emails in a timely fashion. If you don't have a phone, you're not going to receive phone calls or texts. Good luck to homeless! When you do have a computer, the government services offload your information to a private third party. You are required to do this to enroll in government services, and that private entity has its own license agreement whose jurisdiction is not even in Texas. If you have a disagreement, good luck getting to Idaho to file a dispute when you can't afford groceries. And all of your private information is made available to the lowest bidder.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      I looked at the various utility companies in Texas. They all have in office support. Are you really telling me that senior citizens are not getting utilities if they don’t have an email address? They require home phone numbers. And you are talking about owning a phone - not a smart phone. Here is a feature phone for you https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go

scarface_74 2y ago

And completely ignoring my second link. No one is forced to be on social media.

inetknght 2y ago
> No one is forced to be on social media. Not yet, perhaps. But try getting a job without a linkedin account. Try getting fair prices without an email address. For that matter, try getting email without a large-block mail provider and without getting your email server blocked or spammed. Try filing for unemployment without a SMS-capable phone or email address or signing away your rights to a non-government entity.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I’m sure you know that you can get a computer with a web browser that doesn’t run either Windows or MacOS and you can use Firefox? You can also get email from non BigTech providers. And there are plenty of non smart phones that can receive text messages.
  - inetknght 2y ago
    > I’m sure you know that you can get a computer with a web browser that doesn’t run either Windows or MacOS and you can use Firefox? You wanna put some money where your mouth is? In other Hacker News... Linux troubles: - [0.a] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839502 "Facebook ban on discussing Linux" - (bonus comment} [0.a.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848523 "Linux users are extremists according to the NSA (http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/nsa-linux-journal-extremist-forum-and-its-readers-get-flagged-extra-surveillance http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/nsa-linux-journal-extrem...)" - [0.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4063236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4063236 "Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices" - [0.c] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19224887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19224887 "Apple Is Blocking Linux User-Agent on appleid.apple.com" - [0.d] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197401 "Tell HN: Cloudflare is locking out Linux users" Firefox troubles: - [1.a] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34952279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34952279 "Ask HN: Is your Firefox blocked by Cloudflare in recent weeks? (e.g., Gitlab)" - [1.b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31459258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31459258 "Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare" - [1.c] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42719865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42719865 "Google.com search now refusing to search for FF esr 128 without JavaScript" - [1.d] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938521 "Reddit Blocks Firefox" - [1.e] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33269391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33269391 "Firefox Private Mode blocked by T-Mobile" I could go on, but I won't. Suffice to say that yes you are right you "can" get such a computer. But there are very strong indications that won't always be true, and even having such a computer does not guarantee that you can access the services that you require. > And there are plenty of non smart phones that can receive text messages. What you mean is that there are plenty of non-smart phones that enable receiving of massive amounts of spam indistinguishable from spearphishing, and you even pay for that privilege. No. I do not accept the concept of being required to pay for that "service".

wisty 2y ago

A very smug comic. It misses 2 main points: 1. The system we have seems to have done a pretty good job, since people are choosing its products, rather than products created by another system. 2. A lot of people will rarely make a larger sacrifice than maybe quitting Twitter for a while despite spending a huge amount of time trying to preach to other people about how important their cause is. Which makes it seem like the noises they make are often just posturing.

inetknght 2y ago
> The system we have seems to have done a pretty good job, since people are choosing its products That's a weird phrase for "people do not have a choice about the products they use" > A lot of people will rarely make a larger sacrifice than maybe quitting Twitter for a while despite spending a huge amount of time trying to preach to other people Speak for yourself. I know plenty of people who want to disconnect but literally cannot because the services they're required to use also require connectivity. > Which makes it seem like the noises they make are often just posturing. Yes, that's the real evil isn't it? When you lack choices or recourse then talk is cheap.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  So which services require social media or any BigTech company?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- wisty 2y ago
  Talk is cheap, so it's easier than actions. If it was important enough to people, they'd act, even if there were some costs and inconveniences. That's the difference betwen people saying what yhey want, and their revealed preferences. Take climate change, something I suspect we agree on. People won't take individual action, and so it's no shock that they also won't vote for a politician who will promise to force them to take action, unless they are convinced that the costs to them will be small. Also, a hot take - climate change denial is partly virtue signalling by people who'd just rather have other people solve the problem but don't want to admit that. Yeah, big oil propaganda and a hostility between creationists and scientists is also a factor.

whimsicalism 2y ago

yeah i hate when i have to IG dm my doctor for an appointment