6 ms·

I didn’t know. this line is really upsetting people tonight.

by stall84 2y ago

ty6853 2y ago
[flagged]
- femto 2y ago
  The Westminster tradition is for the public service to give "frank and fearless advice" [1] in the interests of the nation. It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders. As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Of course the above is theoretical. In practise governments demand loyalty to themselves and there is little peril to Ministers as there now seems to be little repercussion for denying responsibility. [1] https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissioner/informing-and-advising-ministers/ https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissi...
  - Ntrails 2y ago
    > It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders Whilst this is true, the civil service has been alleged to leak/ brief against such orders, not to mention be obstructive about their implementation. The hard part for me at least is telling whether this is because eg "ordering us to make buildings out of compacted sand is hard" or "we are going to drag our feet as much as we can because this is dumb"
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Both systems rely on the people in charge being told okay with being told "no, this is a bad idea". The Ministers/Secretaries/Executive may think their plan(s) are a good idea and the civil service are being obstructionist. (Of course the civil service could be wrong as well.)
    - ty6853 2y ago
      The US system relies on them informing the public, or in case of say the ATF they make quasi law through opinions and then arrest the public and put them in tiny cages. The public can decide to elect someone to shit can them. We have voted to liberate many of them from service. Obviously some wont like that, but they are servants to the people not peers.
      - freen 2y ago
        Yeah, bureaucrat equals evil is an easy position to take: No one likes following the rules until they are responsible for cleaning up after the people who didn’t follow the rules.
        ty6853 2y ago
        The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. They've broken the rules, and it is time for the mess to be cleaned up and ejected from their jobs. Many who have more HN-like peers and communities may not realize this is the opinion of the people, but the awakening is coming when the paychecks stop.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        throw0101c 2y ago
        > The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. Wait until you see the messes that are created when there are no rules because there is no bureaucracy.
        Toutouxc 2y ago
        Funny, you could just replace “American” with “German” and the comment would still work, even like 90 years or so ago!
        2y ago
- craftsman 2y ago
  I think you mean civil servants. There should be nothing we all want more than to have a professional--and more importantly--apolitical civil service whose members are empowered to do their jobs.
addicted 2y ago
I’m curious, how many people in your business were elected to their jobs? Do you think people should be electing the ATC agents? Also, what’s your opinion about the entire cabinet, Elon Musk, and the likes, all of whom are also unelected?
- natch 2y ago
  Kamala was also unelected for her position as the democratic candidate for the 2024 election. My opinion is that was a really dumb idea that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory for the democrats. And the cray crays (“Elon is a Nazi”) have the nerve to accuse the other side of being the threat to democracy. Compared to the non-election anointing of Kamala, other unelected people are just noise. You know I’m right. All of this is just fallout from the unelected candidate being pushed on unwanting voters.

I didn’t know. this line is really upsetting people tonight.

ty6853 2y ago

[flagged]

femto 2y ago
The Westminster tradition is for the public service to give "frank and fearless advice" [1] in the interests of the nation. It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders. As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Of course the above is theoretical. In practise governments demand loyalty to themselves and there is little peril to Ministers as there now seems to be little repercussion for denying responsibility. [1] https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissioner/informing-and-advising-ministers/ https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissi...
- Ntrails 2y ago
  > It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders Whilst this is true, the civil service has been alleged to leak/ brief against such orders, not to mention be obstructive about their implementation. The hard part for me at least is telling whether this is because eg "ordering us to make buildings out of compacted sand is hard" or "we are going to drag our feet as much as we can because this is dumb"
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Both systems rely on the people in charge being told okay with being told "no, this is a bad idea". The Ministers/Secretaries/Executive may think their plan(s) are a good idea and the civil service are being obstructionist. (Of course the civil service could be wrong as well.)
  - ty6853 2y ago
    The US system relies on them informing the public, or in case of say the ATF they make quasi law through opinions and then arrest the public and put them in tiny cages. The public can decide to elect someone to shit can them. We have voted to liberate many of them from service. Obviously some wont like that, but they are servants to the people not peers.
    - freen 2y ago
      Yeah, bureaucrat equals evil is an easy position to take: No one likes following the rules until they are responsible for cleaning up after the people who didn’t follow the rules.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. They've broken the rules, and it is time for the mess to be cleaned up and ejected from their jobs. Many who have more HN-like peers and communities may not realize this is the opinion of the people, but the awakening is coming when the paychecks stop.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        throw0101c 2y ago
        > The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. Wait until you see the messes that are created when there are no rules because there is no bureaucracy.
        Toutouxc 2y ago
        Funny, you could just replace “American” with “German” and the comment would still work, even like 90 years or so ago!
        2y ago
craftsman 2y ago
I think you mean civil servants. There should be nothing we all want more than to have a professional--and more importantly--apolitical civil service whose members are empowered to do their jobs.

addicted 2y ago

I’m curious, how many people in your business were elected to their jobs? Do you think people should be electing the ATC agents? Also, what’s your opinion about the entire cabinet, Elon Musk, and the likes, all of whom are also unelected?

natch 2y ago
Kamala was also unelected for her position as the democratic candidate for the 2024 election. My opinion is that was a really dumb idea that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory for the democrats. And the cray crays (“Elon is a Nazi”) have the nerve to accuse the other side of being the threat to democracy. Compared to the non-election anointing of Kamala, other unelected people are just noise. You know I’m right. All of this is just fallout from the unelected candidate being pushed on unwanting voters.