12 ms·

I just listened to the ATC recording from immediately before the collision. ATC instructs the helicopter to pass behind the CRJ. I’m fairly certain a few minute

by sib301 2y ago

I just listened to the ATC recording from immediately before the collision. ATC instructs the helicopter to pass behind the CRJ. I’m fairly certain a few minutes before that, ATC instructed the helicopter to maintain visual separation, which is common. They typically ask, “do you have the aircraft in sight” and if you respond in the affirmative they rely on you to maintain safe distance. I should mention that in the recording you can only hear one side of the conversation, so I don’t know whether or not the helicopter said whether or not they had visual contact with the plane they collided with. Either way it doesn’t seem to be the fault of ATC. Of course we’ll know more as additional information becomes available.

rsanek 2y ago
Do you want to post a link the recording?
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  it's linked in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42874330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42874330
wyldfire 2y ago
In the video from the webcam there's another plane which is much easier to see. Could they have asked about "the aircraft" and the helicopter pilot mistook which one they referred to? "yes I can see the plane flying much higher"
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  It's possible but generally there's implied context to ATC. ATC would only instruct you to watch out for possible vector interceptions. flying over an approach path, the context would be that you would look for aircraft on approach, not ones in holding or other patterns above. That said, it's possible they mistook which aircraft to look for, but it's unlikely imho and we will likely never know for sure, as I would presume the pilots are deceased.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    I got a lesson in how ATC works with helicopters up close and personal on a helicopter tour. ATC had the helo pilot hold position while an airplane was on final approach. I asked the pilot why we needed to hold as we could clearly see the aircraft and were to my lack of knowledge on the subject "plenty" far away. (It actually took me a second to locate the airplane as my sense of scale was not expecting the plane to be so small which is part of why I made the assumption we were plenty far away.) That's when the pilot told me we were not in the way of the approach but if the pilot had to declare a miss (or whatever they call it) and climb to circle around. The helo was near the path for the plane on the abort flight path. Once the plane was on the ground, ATC allowed us to continue. It was my first experience in an aircraft seeing how ATC controlled the airspace directly. Lots of respect to the folks in ATC with a fraction of understanding in just how much they have to deal with other than the obvious take-off/landings.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    There was a second American Airlirns flight only a couple miles and a thousand feet higher in altitude in the same approach course. You can actually see it in the video that’s circulating.
- mlyle 2y ago
  It's pretty dang easy to misjudge distances and closing rates in a plane or helicopter, especially at night.
  - ketanmaheshwari 2y ago
    Is this true for the trained pilots as well?
    - sklargh 2y ago
      Yes.
    - paulddraper 2y ago
      It's next to impossible to know at night. The only thing you have visually is direction / angular velocity.
      - pfdietz 2y ago
        And if you're on a collision course the other vehicle will appear motionless, with no change in direction. If the airliners was approaching faster than the helicopter it could have been approaching from behind. How large is the field of view of a UH-60?
        lightedman 2y ago
        "How large is the field of view of a UH-60?" Massive, you're practically against the glass. Visibility below is more obstructed than visibility above or to the sides.
        paulddraper 2y ago
        From the radar tracking, they appear to have been at least somewhat head-on. (Also at a low altitude in a large city ... lots of lights.)
        pfdietz 2y ago
- throwaheyy 2y ago
  No, that aircraft (having taken off from Reagan, visible in the full not-cropped videos) is close to the Kennedy Center camera but is nowhere near where the CRJ and helicopter were.
- trhway 2y ago
  > easier to see. One has radars even on recreational boats. That was a military helicopter. At night. It would be hard to believe that it doesn't have nor radar nor IR cameras, and the plane would be lightened up like X-mas tree in both.
  - jahewson 2y ago
    Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar. The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation but night vision goggles are a possibility I guess - though still have all the same drawbacks as using your eyes - you have to look in the right direction and recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing.
    - trhway 2y ago
      >Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar. like in the case of a boat, the air-to-air radar is still peanuts compare to the cost of the plane/helicopter >The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. Pretty surprising for the military. You'd like to know when an enemy fighter or a missile coming for you. And military frequently operates in the territories without any ATC, so you'd like to see even the friendly planes and helicopters too. Say at night over Iraq. And even without radar - simple ADS-B receiver attached to notebook plotting onto the screen of the notebook would be a great improvement in that situation over DC or anywhere over US. > IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation ...recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing. in visual at night you have a sea of city lights with some low flying lights you can easily mistake for ground lights. In IR all those city lights would pretty much disappear, while the plane's engines and exhaust would be a very bright light against very dark background of the sky.
      - bigiain 2y ago
        >>The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. >Pretty surprising for the military. You'd like to know when an enemy fighter or a missile coming for you. I'd guess the answer to "when is an enemy missile heading towards me" would usually be "shortly after you turn on your radar transmitter and reveal your location"...
TacticalCoder 2y ago
[dead]
blantonl 2y ago
Here is the ATC audio between the Tower and PAT-25. Helos that transition DCA's airspace use a separate VHF frequency from traffic landing and departing, but talk to the same tower controller. https://archives.broadcastify.com/44114/20250129/202501292000-281903-44114.mp3 https://archives.broadcastify.com/44114/20250129/20250129200... * At 5:41 - 5342 is given instructions for circling to 33. * At 6:45 - PAT-25 reports Memorial * At 7:06 - tower gives PAT-25 traffic advisory about 5342 and PAT-25 reports traffic in sight and requests visual separation * At 8:12 - tower asks PAT-25 if they have the CRJ in sight and tells him to pass behind the CRJ. PAT-25 again reports traffic in sight and again requests visual separation. * At 8:28 - crash occurs, exclamations, go arounds issued
- fblp 2y ago
  This is wild to listen to. A) this is a busy atc channel and it's amazing how much complexity is coordinated over noisy radio. B) within minutes of the accident happening (at 11:48) the ATC controller is calmly asking helicopters in the air if they can assist in search rescue operations asking, if they have search lights and direction them. This is whilst diverting and grounding flights.
  - consp 2y ago
    > over noisy radio I've been told the noise on the recordings is always a lot worse than in practice due to the location of the recording antenna not being ideal. I have no idea if this is correct or not. Maybe someone can enlighten this.
    - thowawatp302 2y ago
      Yes, having tried to listen to ATC with an SDR— the public recordings are made from antenna that placed near the airport, while the official recordings are made from the feeds that the ATC is listening to— and those antenna have their lobes pointed toward the sky.
    - FL410 2y ago
      Yep. Radios are much clearer in the air. VHF is mostly line of sight and planes have the benefit of altitude. Approach/center comms can get a bit scratchy at times mostly due to distance, but approach/tower is almost always perfectly clear.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
t0mas88 2y ago
The common mistake with this is seeing a plane, reporting "traffic in sight" but looking at a different plane than the one the controller meant. Especially at night where distance is near impossible the estimate and you can't see differences in types of planes. I have no extra information on this incident so this is only generic input.

by sib301 2y ago

rsanek 2y ago

Do you want to post a link the recording?

unsnap_biceps 2y ago
it's linked in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42874330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42874330

wyldfire 2y ago

In the video from the webcam there's another plane which is much easier to see. Could they have asked about "the aircraft" and the helicopter pilot mistook which one they referred to? "yes I can see the plane flying much higher"

unsnap_biceps 2y ago
It's possible but generally there's implied context to ATC. ATC would only instruct you to watch out for possible vector interceptions. flying over an approach path, the context would be that you would look for aircraft on approach, not ones in holding or other patterns above. That said, it's possible they mistook which aircraft to look for, but it's unlikely imho and we will likely never know for sure, as I would presume the pilots are deceased.
- dylan604 2y ago
  I got a lesson in how ATC works with helicopters up close and personal on a helicopter tour. ATC had the helo pilot hold position while an airplane was on final approach. I asked the pilot why we needed to hold as we could clearly see the aircraft and were to my lack of knowledge on the subject "plenty" far away. (It actually took me a second to locate the airplane as my sense of scale was not expecting the plane to be so small which is part of why I made the assumption we were plenty far away.) That's when the pilot told me we were not in the way of the approach but if the pilot had to declare a miss (or whatever they call it) and climb to circle around. The helo was near the path for the plane on the abort flight path. Once the plane was on the ground, ATC allowed us to continue. It was my first experience in an aircraft seeing how ATC controlled the airspace directly. Lots of respect to the folks in ATC with a fraction of understanding in just how much they have to deal with other than the obvious take-off/landings.
- TylerE 2y ago
  There was a second American Airlirns flight only a couple miles and a thousand feet higher in altitude in the same approach course. You can actually see it in the video that’s circulating.
mlyle 2y ago
It's pretty dang easy to misjudge distances and closing rates in a plane or helicopter, especially at night.
- ketanmaheshwari 2y ago
  Is this true for the trained pilots as well?
  - sklargh 2y ago
    Yes.
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    It's next to impossible to know at night. The only thing you have visually is direction / angular velocity.
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      And if you're on a collision course the other vehicle will appear motionless, with no change in direction. If the airliners was approaching faster than the helicopter it could have been approaching from behind. How large is the field of view of a UH-60?
      - lightedman 2y ago
        "How large is the field of view of a UH-60?" Massive, you're practically against the glass. Visibility below is more obstructed than visibility above or to the sides.
      - paulddraper 2y ago
        From the radar tracking, they appear to have been at least somewhat head-on. (Also at a low altitude in a large city ... lots of lights.)
        pfdietz 2y ago
throwaheyy 2y ago
No, that aircraft (having taken off from Reagan, visible in the full not-cropped videos) is close to the Kennedy Center camera but is nowhere near where the CRJ and helicopter were.
trhway 2y ago
> easier to see. One has radars even on recreational boats. That was a military helicopter. At night. It would be hard to believe that it doesn't have nor radar nor IR cameras, and the plane would be lightened up like X-mas tree in both.
- jahewson 2y ago
  Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar. The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation but night vision goggles are a possibility I guess - though still have all the same drawbacks as using your eyes - you have to look in the right direction and recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing.
  - trhway 2y ago
    >Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar. like in the case of a boat, the air-to-air radar is still peanuts compare to the cost of the plane/helicopter >The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. Pretty surprising for the military. You'd like to know when an enemy fighter or a missile coming for you. And military frequently operates in the territories without any ATC, so you'd like to see even the friendly planes and helicopters too. Say at night over Iraq. And even without radar - simple ADS-B receiver attached to notebook plotting onto the screen of the notebook would be a great improvement in that situation over DC or anywhere over US. > IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation ...recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing. in visual at night you have a sea of city lights with some low flying lights you can easily mistake for ground lights. In IR all those city lights would pretty much disappear, while the plane's engines and exhaust would be a very bright light against very dark background of the sky.
    - bigiain 2y ago
      >>The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. >Pretty surprising for the military. You'd like to know when an enemy fighter or a missile coming for you. I'd guess the answer to "when is an enemy missile heading towards me" would usually be "shortly after you turn on your radar transmitter and reveal your location"...

TacticalCoder 2y ago

[dead]

blantonl 2y ago

Here is the ATC audio between the Tower and PAT-25. Helos that transition DCA's airspace use a separate VHF frequency from traffic landing and departing, but talk to the same tower controller. https://archives.broadcastify.com/44114/20250129/202501292000-281903-44114.mp3 https://archives.broadcastify.com/44114/20250129/20250129200... * At 5:41 - 5342 is given instructions for circling to 33. * At 6:45 - PAT-25 reports Memorial * At 7:06 - tower gives PAT-25 traffic advisory about 5342 and PAT-25 reports traffic in sight and requests visual separation * At 8:12 - tower asks PAT-25 if they have the CRJ in sight and tells him to pass behind the CRJ. PAT-25 again reports traffic in sight and again requests visual separation. * At 8:28 - crash occurs, exclamations, go arounds issued

fblp 2y ago
This is wild to listen to. A) this is a busy atc channel and it's amazing how much complexity is coordinated over noisy radio. B) within minutes of the accident happening (at 11:48) the ATC controller is calmly asking helicopters in the air if they can assist in search rescue operations asking, if they have search lights and direction them. This is whilst diverting and grounding flights.
- consp 2y ago
  > over noisy radio I've been told the noise on the recordings is always a lot worse than in practice due to the location of the recording antenna not being ideal. I have no idea if this is correct or not. Maybe someone can enlighten this.
  - thowawatp302 2y ago
    Yes, having tried to listen to ATC with an SDR— the public recordings are made from antenna that placed near the airport, while the official recordings are made from the feeds that the ATC is listening to— and those antenna have their lobes pointed toward the sky.
  - FL410 2y ago
    Yep. Radios are much clearer in the air. VHF is mostly line of sight and planes have the benefit of altitude. Approach/center comms can get a bit scratchy at times mostly due to distance, but approach/tower is almost always perfectly clear.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

t0mas88 2y ago

The common mistake with this is seeing a plane, reporting "traffic in sight" but looking at a different plane than the one the controller meant. Especially at night where distance is near impossible the estimate and you can't see differences in types of planes. I have no extra information on this incident so this is only generic input.