6 ms·

As an alternate theory, I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended. T

As an alternate theory, I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended. The theory is that it’s not good for us emotionally to be comfortable continuously. Maybe fasting is an example of that?

pwillia7 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism
k__ 2y ago
I read somewhere, if you fast, the body thinks you can't find food, so it gives you more dopamine to motivate you to find more.
- tcbawo 2y ago
  Interesting hypothesis. Mental acuity does seem higher while fasting. Is that a dopamine specific effect, or could there be a handful of hormones impacting mental state?
chefandy 2y ago
That’s personality-specific. My Dad is like that and doesn’t understand why nobody else in the family gets off on self-imposed austerity. (He’s a great guy by the way — we all have our quirks.) He loves to say it’s a lack of discipline, but it’s not— I quit smoking after a decade-and-a-half of heavy smoking, lost 20% of my body weight on an 800 calorie per day ketogenic diet, worked many very difficult jobs, and did a number of other things that have required sustained discipline, as have others in the family. He doesn’t understand that the difference is that he enjoys self-imposed misery and the feelings of superiority he gets from it, which not only leads to a lack of balance in his life, sometimes strains his closest relationships.
- digbybk 2y ago
  “Enjoys misery” is an oxymoron I think. He enjoys joy, which he gets from doing difficult things. I’m just taking your dad’s side on this because I suspect I share some of his tendencies :)
  - chefandy 2y ago
    Ok, rather than enjoying self-imposed misery he enjoys the process of imposing and Meta state while experiencing self-imposed misery. You know, I think you might be right. ;-)
    - codr7 2y ago
      Or challenges, overcoming seemingly impossible obstacles, I need that to feel alive. But it's all for me, I have no cravings for telling other people. The exception would be if I see a possibility to inspire someone.
- jajko 2y ago
  Does he not understand the situation even when you lay it so bare in front of him? People tend to get off the course sometimes on their own, but smart mature ones prefer honest correcting feedbacks (to certain extent), if it means ie better more stable relationships with closest ones
  - chefandy 2y ago
    He’s pretty hard-headed, but so are his middle-aged sons. These days we’re all grown-up enough to know when to sort of shake our heads and change the subject. My mom has her own way of setting boundaries which seems to work for her but unless she wants to talk about something specific, it’s normally nothing I need to even think about. She feels comfortable enough confiding in me though. To be clear he’s a 100% stand-up guy, doesn’t have an anger problem, and even though he can be frustrating to deal with sometimes, there is never a question about him doing what’s best for his family, even if that means swallowing something he’s annoyed by if it’s necessary.
- jancsika 2y ago
  > My Dad is like that and doesn’t understand why nobody else in the family gets off on self-imposed austerity. My gut feeling: men of a certain generation seem to have confused the skill of seeming aloof-- like when meeting a stranger or thrust in a new situation-- for being emotionally unaffected in general. One sign I associate with this would be talking only in the past tense about having felt certain emotions, but you never really witness the person feeling or expressing those emotions (outside of anger/frustration). Alternatively, the person may never really engage in discussions about certain negative feelings, unless it's to offer low-effort problem-solving advice to others. This is difficult because there are obviously times when a small, seemingly insignificant problem can trigger an outsized emotion. It's natural and helpful to be able to sit with that negative emotion-- to feel it, express it and talk about it as an emotion you are experiencing-- to be able to eventually come to terms and get to know better whatever it is that's driving it. It's scary to do, but most people have some techniques for doing it. If you have few or no tools to do that, it must generate an immense amount of stress. Hence wacky alternative stress-relieving techniques that are more physical and less emotional in nature. (Plus the projection of "lack of discipline" makes me wonder if he'd feel shame from sitting with a negative emotion.)
  - codr7 2y ago
    I don't find it difficult to talk about negative feelings, as long as no one is listening. Talking to other people is mostly useless these days, they're all busy hiding from themselves.
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      And if you try to point out, even gently, where "the real them" may be hiding, you get an almost violent denial response.
  - patcon 2y ago
    > One sign I associate with this would be talking only in the past tense about having felt certain emotions, but you never really witness the person feeling or expressing those emotions (outside of anger/frustration). Alternatively, the person may never really engage in discussions about certain negative feelings, unless it's to offer low-effort problem-solving advice to others. That's really insightful! Thank you. Saving your words in a scratch note for later
- ninalanyon 2y ago
  Austerity is not the same a misery. In some ways I live an austere life but I am happy. Misery comes from poverty not self imposed austerity; the first is often imposed by the outside world whereas your father's and my austerity are, as you say, self imposed and under our own control.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    You’re making arbitrary definitions for those words. Austerity can absolutely lead to misery and some of the happiest times in my life have been some of the most impoverished.
    - ninalanyon 2y ago
      > Austerity can absolutely lead to misery I didn't say that it couldn't, merely that it doesn't necessarily do so.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    Austerity often comes naturally with age, just because spending money requires effort and energy older people don't have.
    - deleted 2y ago
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SecretDreams 2y ago
This... Reads a touch like baby manic depression. Certainly, the highs feel better if you're coming from a low; but I tend to prefer my highs coming from mids. I will say that, although not a low, the sweet relief of getting through a stressful situation/project is great.
- nkozyra 2y ago
  There's a flip side to that, which is anhedonia. If you're always at a mid, it's kind of harder to get the highs. But you avoid the lows, I suppose.
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    Anhedonia is sometimes used to refer to 'flat affect', which I guess could be taken as 'mid', but usually it is used to describe a lack of joy/desire that is quite common in major depressive episodes.
sporkland 2y ago
This interview about dopamine and homeostasis in the body would support the idea that resetting that system through suffering would likely be a valid approach: https://youtu.be/R6xbXOp7wDA?si=iUUfMZe05DO0wR5K https://youtu.be/R6xbXOp7wDA?si=iUUfMZe05DO0wR5K
alecst 2y ago
I'm no stranger to discomfort. I enjoy it. Like, my bed is a piece of plywood with a blanket on it. The increase in energy and clarity of my thinking, the tingly feeling in my body, and the improved sleep quality -- just to give you a few examples -- are hard to attribute to the mechanism you're talking about. To add to that, I regularly fast for five days at a time and I have not yet experienced the same kind of mental difference. This time I pushed it to two weeks because my energy levels continued to fluctuate upward until the 12th or 13th day. You do feel a lot of relief that the boredom of fasting is over. But that effect lasts maybe a day or two or three. Certainly not months.
- nkozyra 2y ago
  > Like, my bed is a piece of plywood with a blanket on it. Other than the potential for mold accumulation (you definitely want some air to circulate), this is not actually a bad bed base for sleep quality. Depending on your size, it's likely better for you than some very expensive plush mattresses. Plywood has give to it that a hardwood wouldn't, so what you're sleeping on isn't entirely rigid anyway. But drill some holes in it :) I fast somewhat frequently, and I don't really associate it with pain or discomfort, but I'm also doing it for 24-48 hours. Extremely long fasts (like your two weeks) should come with a disclaimer, they're not for everyone.
  - HKH2 2y ago
    If 14 days is extremely long, what is 382 days?
    - nkozyra 2y ago
      It's "medically supervised"
p_ing 2y ago
> I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. That's not an alternate "theory". https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-scientific-reason-why-self-harm-makes-some-people-feel-better-180953062/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-scientific-... > People who self-harm, writes Arnold, have “learned that, while the pain peaks with self-injury, it then comes down the other side. The physical pain lessens – as does the emotional pain.” People don't self-harm because it hurts. They self-harm because it _feels good_. Pain is "pleasure", for lack of a better phrase.
- vdjskshi 2y ago
  Most of them self harm because the removal the pain feels good - and it takes with it some emotional pain. Though there probably are some masochists that truly enjoy the pain, but that's a different condition than the more common I-hate-myself-so-I-hurt-myself.
  - p_ing 2y ago
    > removal the pain feels good Not quite. The pain causes an endorphin release. It's also addictive (not technically by the DSM sense, but those who do will often call it as such) and has been compared to heroin.
- jcims 2y ago
  I was a hobby beekeeper for a few years and grew to enjoy getting stung. It still hurts like hell at first but the ride down is lovely. Spicy foods might be another example.
- codr7 2y ago
  There's also the not so constructive tendency to punish the body for what the brain comes up with and the feelings that come with it. It's really the only part of yourself you can harm.
consp 2y ago
> Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended Good luck if you are suffering from most forms of depression in getting that relief since everything is suffering.
- papa0101 2y ago
  The obligatory “To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be happy one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness.”
idontwantthis 2y ago
It’s also a major accomplishment which can boost your mood and confidence regardless of it’s direct emotional effect.
hinkley 2y ago
When I learned about the hedonic treadmill I thought back to a number of athletic programmers I’ve known who always seemed to be a lot more put together than the rest of us. I always figured the relationship went the other way. That having your shit together meant more time for activities. It may be the other way around.
- codr7 2y ago
  Physical activity is a life saver for me, it allows me to release energy that would otherwise cause trouble down the line.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    If you can handle running 5 miles, you can handle that terrible refactoring task you discovered this morning.
    - defyonce 2y ago
      As a person who did 21km run in fasted state (didn't eat for 36 hours before) and then swam in a 7 degrees pond with ice, I can definitely say: NO. I tried for 8 hours straight to code just a little bit, but was unable to. I guess that is burnout, or, in general, understanding that I am not interested in all this computer stuff anymore after doing it for 15 years.
      - codr7 2y ago
        Yeah, the other stuff sounds like more fun to me as well :)
autumnstwilight 2y ago
Anecdotally, I've observed I feel better with a certain amount of difficulty in my life and felt particularly bad when there was nothing -wrong- but I still felt depressed. If you don't have any problems you can attribute the bad feelings to, then you naturally start to consider the possibility that the problem is you and you're broken in a way that means you're going to feel bad regardless of how much your life circumstances improve. Which is a particularly despair-inducing thought to have. Last year I cracked my hip joint and ended up in the hospital for a couple of weeks, doing physio to regain my ability to walk. I certainly don't want to repeat that experience but I was surprised that I felt less depressed during it, because there was clarity in what I immediately needed to do and I was focused on just getting through it, not existential angst.
hattmall 2y ago
A two week fast is incredibly difficult, accomplishing it, taking part in etc is very meaningful. Consistently throughout time and history a sense of purpose has been remarked as key to human happiness.
corry 2y ago
I believe this is a well-understood feature of the dopamine system? The sensitivity of the receptors is like a balance scale, and will correct to one side if the other is flooded. Give yourself big dopamine rushes and the scale balances by reducing your sensitivity to dopamine and (crudely put) causes feelings of discontentment, and you’ll need more dopamine released to feel like normal. Alternatively, push down on the pain side of the scale by doing some controlled suffering — fasting, cold plunge, intense exercise — and the receptors become more sensitive, and you feel better. I’m sure this is too simplistic of a model but it makes sense to me in terms of lived experience.

pwillia7 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism

k__ 2y ago

I read somewhere, if you fast, the body thinks you can't find food, so it gives you more dopamine to motivate you to find more.

tcbawo 2y ago
Interesting hypothesis. Mental acuity does seem higher while fasting. Is that a dopamine specific effect, or could there be a handful of hormones impacting mental state?

chefandy 2y ago

That’s personality-specific. My Dad is like that and doesn’t understand why nobody else in the family gets off on self-imposed austerity. (He’s a great guy by the way — we all have our quirks.) He loves to say it’s a lack of discipline, but it’s not— I quit smoking after a decade-and-a-half of heavy smoking, lost 20% of my body weight on an 800 calorie per day ketogenic diet, worked many very difficult jobs, and did a number of other things that have required sustained discipline, as have others in the family. He doesn’t understand that the difference is that he enjoys self-imposed misery and the feelings of superiority he gets from it, which not only leads to a lack of balance in his life, sometimes strains his closest relationships.

digbybk 2y ago
“Enjoys misery” is an oxymoron I think. He enjoys joy, which he gets from doing difficult things. I’m just taking your dad’s side on this because I suspect I share some of his tendencies :)
- chefandy 2y ago
  Ok, rather than enjoying self-imposed misery he enjoys the process of imposing and Meta state while experiencing self-imposed misery. You know, I think you might be right. ;-)
  - codr7 2y ago
    Or challenges, overcoming seemingly impossible obstacles, I need that to feel alive. But it's all for me, I have no cravings for telling other people. The exception would be if I see a possibility to inspire someone.
jajko 2y ago
Does he not understand the situation even when you lay it so bare in front of him? People tend to get off the course sometimes on their own, but smart mature ones prefer honest correcting feedbacks (to certain extent), if it means ie better more stable relationships with closest ones
- chefandy 2y ago
  He’s pretty hard-headed, but so are his middle-aged sons. These days we’re all grown-up enough to know when to sort of shake our heads and change the subject. My mom has her own way of setting boundaries which seems to work for her but unless she wants to talk about something specific, it’s normally nothing I need to even think about. She feels comfortable enough confiding in me though. To be clear he’s a 100% stand-up guy, doesn’t have an anger problem, and even though he can be frustrating to deal with sometimes, there is never a question about him doing what’s best for his family, even if that means swallowing something he’s annoyed by if it’s necessary.
jancsika 2y ago
> My Dad is like that and doesn’t understand why nobody else in the family gets off on self-imposed austerity. My gut feeling: men of a certain generation seem to have confused the skill of seeming aloof-- like when meeting a stranger or thrust in a new situation-- for being emotionally unaffected in general. One sign I associate with this would be talking only in the past tense about having felt certain emotions, but you never really witness the person feeling or expressing those emotions (outside of anger/frustration). Alternatively, the person may never really engage in discussions about certain negative feelings, unless it's to offer low-effort problem-solving advice to others. This is difficult because there are obviously times when a small, seemingly insignificant problem can trigger an outsized emotion. It's natural and helpful to be able to sit with that negative emotion-- to feel it, express it and talk about it as an emotion you are experiencing-- to be able to eventually come to terms and get to know better whatever it is that's driving it. It's scary to do, but most people have some techniques for doing it. If you have few or no tools to do that, it must generate an immense amount of stress. Hence wacky alternative stress-relieving techniques that are more physical and less emotional in nature. (Plus the projection of "lack of discipline" makes me wonder if he'd feel shame from sitting with a negative emotion.)
- codr7 2y ago
  I don't find it difficult to talk about negative feelings, as long as no one is listening. Talking to other people is mostly useless these days, they're all busy hiding from themselves.
  - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    And if you try to point out, even gently, where "the real them" may be hiding, you get an almost violent denial response.
- patcon 2y ago
  > One sign I associate with this would be talking only in the past tense about having felt certain emotions, but you never really witness the person feeling or expressing those emotions (outside of anger/frustration). Alternatively, the person may never really engage in discussions about certain negative feelings, unless it's to offer low-effort problem-solving advice to others. That's really insightful! Thank you. Saving your words in a scratch note for later
ninalanyon 2y ago
Austerity is not the same a misery. In some ways I live an austere life but I am happy. Misery comes from poverty not self imposed austerity; the first is often imposed by the outside world whereas your father's and my austerity are, as you say, self imposed and under our own control.
- chefandy 2y ago
  You’re making arbitrary definitions for those words. Austerity can absolutely lead to misery and some of the happiest times in my life have been some of the most impoverished.
  - ninalanyon 2y ago
    > Austerity can absolutely lead to misery I didn't say that it couldn't, merely that it doesn't necessarily do so.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  Austerity often comes naturally with age, just because spending money requires effort and energy older people don't have.
  - deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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SecretDreams 2y ago

This... Reads a touch like baby manic depression. Certainly, the highs feel better if you're coming from a low; but I tend to prefer my highs coming from mids. I will say that, although not a low, the sweet relief of getting through a stressful situation/project is great.

nkozyra 2y ago
There's a flip side to that, which is anhedonia. If you're always at a mid, it's kind of harder to get the highs. But you avoid the lows, I suppose.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  Anhedonia is sometimes used to refer to 'flat affect', which I guess could be taken as 'mid', but usually it is used to describe a lack of joy/desire that is quite common in major depressive episodes.

sporkland 2y ago

This interview about dopamine and homeostasis in the body would support the idea that resetting that system through suffering would likely be a valid approach: https://youtu.be/R6xbXOp7wDA?si=iUUfMZe05DO0wR5K https://youtu.be/R6xbXOp7wDA?si=iUUfMZe05DO0wR5K

alecst 2y ago

I'm no stranger to discomfort. I enjoy it. Like, my bed is a piece of plywood with a blanket on it. The increase in energy and clarity of my thinking, the tingly feeling in my body, and the improved sleep quality -- just to give you a few examples -- are hard to attribute to the mechanism you're talking about. To add to that, I regularly fast for five days at a time and I have not yet experienced the same kind of mental difference. This time I pushed it to two weeks because my energy levels continued to fluctuate upward until the 12th or 13th day. You do feel a lot of relief that the boredom of fasting is over. But that effect lasts maybe a day or two or three. Certainly not months.

nkozyra 2y ago
> Like, my bed is a piece of plywood with a blanket on it. Other than the potential for mold accumulation (you definitely want some air to circulate), this is not actually a bad bed base for sleep quality. Depending on your size, it's likely better for you than some very expensive plush mattresses. Plywood has give to it that a hardwood wouldn't, so what you're sleeping on isn't entirely rigid anyway. But drill some holes in it :) I fast somewhat frequently, and I don't really associate it with pain or discomfort, but I'm also doing it for 24-48 hours. Extremely long fasts (like your two weeks) should come with a disclaimer, they're not for everyone.
- HKH2 2y ago
  If 14 days is extremely long, what is 382 days?
  - nkozyra 2y ago
    It's "medically supervised"

p_ing 2y ago

> I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. That's not an alternate "theory". https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-scientific-reason-why-self-harm-makes-some-people-feel-better-180953062/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-scientific-... > People who self-harm, writes Arnold, have “learned that, while the pain peaks with self-injury, it then comes down the other side. The physical pain lessens – as does the emotional pain.” People don't self-harm because it hurts. They self-harm because it _feels good_. Pain is "pleasure", for lack of a better phrase.

vdjskshi 2y ago
Most of them self harm because the removal the pain feels good - and it takes with it some emotional pain. Though there probably are some masochists that truly enjoy the pain, but that's a different condition than the more common I-hate-myself-so-I-hurt-myself.
- p_ing 2y ago
  > removal the pain feels good Not quite. The pain causes an endorphin release. It's also addictive (not technically by the DSM sense, but those who do will often call it as such) and has been compared to heroin.
jcims 2y ago
I was a hobby beekeeper for a few years and grew to enjoy getting stung. It still hurts like hell at first but the ride down is lovely. Spicy foods might be another example.
codr7 2y ago
There's also the not so constructive tendency to punish the body for what the brain comes up with and the feelings that come with it. It's really the only part of yourself you can harm.

consp 2y ago

> Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended Good luck if you are suffering from most forms of depression in getting that relief since everything is suffering.

papa0101 2y ago
The obligatory “To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be happy one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness.”

idontwantthis 2y ago

It’s also a major accomplishment which can boost your mood and confidence regardless of it’s direct emotional effect.

hinkley 2y ago

When I learned about the hedonic treadmill I thought back to a number of athletic programmers I’ve known who always seemed to be a lot more put together than the rest of us. I always figured the relationship went the other way. That having your shit together meant more time for activities. It may be the other way around.

codr7 2y ago
Physical activity is a life saver for me, it allows me to release energy that would otherwise cause trouble down the line.
- hinkley 2y ago
  If you can handle running 5 miles, you can handle that terrible refactoring task you discovered this morning.
  - defyonce 2y ago
    As a person who did 21km run in fasted state (didn't eat for 36 hours before) and then swam in a 7 degrees pond with ice, I can definitely say: NO. I tried for 8 hours straight to code just a little bit, but was unable to. I guess that is burnout, or, in general, understanding that I am not interested in all this computer stuff anymore after doing it for 15 years.
    - codr7 2y ago
      Yeah, the other stuff sounds like more fun to me as well :)

autumnstwilight 2y ago

Anecdotally, I've observed I feel better with a certain amount of difficulty in my life and felt particularly bad when there was nothing -wrong- but I still felt depressed. If you don't have any problems you can attribute the bad feelings to, then you naturally start to consider the possibility that the problem is you and you're broken in a way that means you're going to feel bad regardless of how much your life circumstances improve. Which is a particularly despair-inducing thought to have. Last year I cracked my hip joint and ended up in the hospital for a couple of weeks, doing physio to regain my ability to walk. I certainly don't want to repeat that experience but I was surprised that I felt less depressed during it, because there was clarity in what I immediately needed to do and I was focused on just getting through it, not existential angst.

hattmall 2y ago

A two week fast is incredibly difficult, accomplishing it, taking part in etc is very meaningful. Consistently throughout time and history a sense of purpose has been remarked as key to human happiness.

corry 2y ago

I believe this is a well-understood feature of the dopamine system? The sensitivity of the receptors is like a balance scale, and will correct to one side if the other is flooded. Give yourself big dopamine rushes and the scale balances by reducing your sensitivity to dopamine and (crudely put) causes feelings of discontentment, and you’ll need more dopamine released to feel like normal. Alternatively, push down on the pain side of the scale by doing some controlled suffering — fasting, cold plunge, intense exercise — and the receptors become more sensitive, and you feel better. I’m sure this is too simplistic of a model but it makes sense to me in terms of lived experience.