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The thing is that when someone has to work hard to seem Alpha they are instead revealing their insecurity--the need to compensate to hide vulnerability. Some p

The thing is that when someone has to work hard to seem Alpha they are instead revealing their insecurity--the need to compensate to hide vulnerability. Some people play into that game, others see through it.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
Alphas are just leaders. Whether they have vulnerabilities is orthogonal to the fact that they control and lead the pack. Whether it’s through force or pay. Do you have a good boss that you like who’s a good person? He’s an alpha. You’re a beta if you’re under him. Do you have a boss who’s an ass hole who got pegged and raped by his uncle when he was a kid and now he’s taking all that pent up humiliation on you? Yeah he has a big vulnerability. But. He. Is. Still. An. Alpha. It’s not a game. Games are for friend groups and kids. I’m talking about the economic engine that builds civilization itself. That engine is made up of a hierarchy of alphas and betas.
- jonnybgood 2y ago
  That's not how the word alpha is used colloquially. I believe error_logic is referring to its colloquial usage.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    The colloquial usage is leaders. Not people with insecurities.
    - defrost 2y ago
      A colloquial usage is leaders. Another common colloquial usage is total self obsessed wanker.
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        [flagged]
        defrost 2y ago
        I'm cool calm and collected. Don't project, don't assume you can read minds and emotional states over the internet. Of course we here in Australia think of anyone bandying about "alpha" as a tosser .. how else do you suppose they'd be thought of? They're literally right there with people that use "Bro" in a sentence and espouse paleo diets.
        ninetyninenine 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42844619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42844619 We're talking about the definition in a more formal context. Of course I don't go around saying hey "that dude is an alpha" or "i'm an alpha."
    - jcranmer 2y ago
      The only colloquial usage I've seen is that it is someone who has the ability to demand that others perform a public display of obedience to them. Like every time I've seen somebody unironically refer to themself as an "alpha," it's always had that underlying connotation of "Respect Me!" And every time I've seen someone mocking somebody else for being an "alpha," it's because, well, that respect was clearly undeserved.
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        Right but the term here is used to categorize human/animal hierarchies/behavior in an objective context. No one is here projecting their alphaness onto others. Clearly.
      - earnestinger 2y ago
        > Like every time I've seen somebody unironically refer to themself as an "your leader," it's always had that underlying connotation of "Respect Me!" And every time I've seen someone mocking somebody else for being an "my leader," it's because, well, that respect was clearly undeserved. I think same sentiment persists when alpha->”your leader” replacement is made.
- fenomas 2y ago
  > Alphas are just leaders If you redefine alpha to just mean "leader", then the claim that CEOs are alphas is obviously true, but also meaningless. But the theory TFA is about was not just that wolf packs had a leader. It made a bunch of other claims, as TFA describes, and those other parts (that you're excluding) are what's considered debunked.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    There's no redefinition here. When we refer to animals in every context, alphas are leaders. There's no "redefinition" going on here at all. What's going on is you're not able to see how alphas apply to human society. You're not able to jump the intellectual gap to identify, "hey if packs of animals have alphas, what's the human equivalent?" I attempted to jump that gap for you, but you're not able to see it. >But the theory TFA is about was not just that wolf packs had a leader. It made a bunch of other claims, as TFA describes, and those other parts (that you're excluding) are what's considered debunked. And he applies that to humans without considering alphas in other animal hierarchies. He implies that the entire theoretical concept of alphas comes ONLY from wolves and once he debunks wolves (with no citations) he debunks the entire concept of what an alpha is. Riiggght.
    - cbsmith 2y ago
      > There's no redefinition here. When we refer to animals in every context, alphas are leaders. Yes, there is a redefinition. The context of Alpha Wolf was based on the notion of a dominance hierarchy, which does occur when unrelated wolves are put together in a confined space. In the wild though, they function more like a family, with no acts of dominance. The breeding pair still lead the pack, but not through dominance. https://web.archive.org/web/20051214072331/http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/2000/alstat/alstat.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20051214072331/http://www.npwrc....
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939
- bbwbsb 2y ago
  (Dominance-related) insecurity is being pathologically averse to being seen as weak, which leads to preferring dominance as form over dominance as function. If the meek hippie gets everything he wants from his wife, his neighbors, his peers, etc., and the physically impressive traditional man is ignored and rejected, then the hippie is more dominant (i.e., leading and getting what he wants) than the traditional man (even if he is abusing his wife the whole time she laughs at him). The actually effective strategies are available to the insecure but shunned and rejected because they cannot be tolerated, creating a self-imposed impotence. The word alpha, in almost every context I've observed, is used exclusively to refer to such dominance as form, especially in substitution for dominance as function. i.e., it is applied almost exclusively to people who are definitionally not dominant. The only exception I have encountered is women-focused kink literature which, being fantasy, maintains that dominance as form is dominance as function so as to make sexual fantasies seem more real. In short: you are describing a kink, not real life. Though I consider that you might be joking too; I really can't tell.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    >In short: you are describing a kink, not real life. Though I consider that you might be joking too; I really can't tell. The fact that you said this means you're out of touch with reality. Let me provide evidence about how wrong you are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 Literally you can go to the dictionary yourself and look up the definition to see how baseless your argument is. I don't know why you people are just pulling this bs out of thin air. It can't be just BS is several people are coming from your angle despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary. Maybe it's just shared victimhood. Were you bullied by these types of people before?
    - hackable_sand 2y ago
      They are right though. You are describing a kink.
    - gilleain 2y ago
      > I don't know why you people are just pulling this bs out of thin air. "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the children who are wrong." - Principal Skinner
- watwut 2y ago
  > Alphas are just leaders. No they are not. There are plenty of leaders who are not alphas and they lead organizations that achieve good things. Alphas are generally just assholes who want to be leaders. They usually lead self selected friends who crave their validation and people with healthy boundaries just nope out of those systems.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

Alphas are just leaders. Whether they have vulnerabilities is orthogonal to the fact that they control and lead the pack. Whether it’s through force or pay. Do you have a good boss that you like who’s a good person? He’s an alpha. You’re a beta if you’re under him. Do you have a boss who’s an ass hole who got pegged and raped by his uncle when he was a kid and now he’s taking all that pent up humiliation on you? Yeah he has a big vulnerability. But. He. Is. Still. An. Alpha. It’s not a game. Games are for friend groups and kids. I’m talking about the economic engine that builds civilization itself. That engine is made up of a hierarchy of alphas and betas.

jonnybgood 2y ago
That's not how the word alpha is used colloquially. I believe error_logic is referring to its colloquial usage.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  The colloquial usage is leaders. Not people with insecurities.
  - defrost 2y ago
    A colloquial usage is leaders. Another common colloquial usage is total self obsessed wanker.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - defrost 2y ago
        I'm cool calm and collected. Don't project, don't assume you can read minds and emotional states over the internet. Of course we here in Australia think of anyone bandying about "alpha" as a tosser .. how else do you suppose they'd be thought of? They're literally right there with people that use "Bro" in a sentence and espouse paleo diets.
        ninetyninenine 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42844619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42844619 We're talking about the definition in a more formal context. Of course I don't go around saying hey "that dude is an alpha" or "i'm an alpha."
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    The only colloquial usage I've seen is that it is someone who has the ability to demand that others perform a public display of obedience to them. Like every time I've seen somebody unironically refer to themself as an "alpha," it's always had that underlying connotation of "Respect Me!" And every time I've seen someone mocking somebody else for being an "alpha," it's because, well, that respect was clearly undeserved.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      Right but the term here is used to categorize human/animal hierarchies/behavior in an objective context. No one is here projecting their alphaness onto others. Clearly.
    - earnestinger 2y ago
      > Like every time I've seen somebody unironically refer to themself as an "your leader," it's always had that underlying connotation of "Respect Me!" And every time I've seen someone mocking somebody else for being an "my leader," it's because, well, that respect was clearly undeserved. I think same sentiment persists when alpha->”your leader” replacement is made.
fenomas 2y ago
> Alphas are just leaders If you redefine alpha to just mean "leader", then the claim that CEOs are alphas is obviously true, but also meaningless. But the theory TFA is about was not just that wolf packs had a leader. It made a bunch of other claims, as TFA describes, and those other parts (that you're excluding) are what's considered debunked.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  There's no redefinition here. When we refer to animals in every context, alphas are leaders. There's no "redefinition" going on here at all. What's going on is you're not able to see how alphas apply to human society. You're not able to jump the intellectual gap to identify, "hey if packs of animals have alphas, what's the human equivalent?" I attempted to jump that gap for you, but you're not able to see it. >But the theory TFA is about was not just that wolf packs had a leader. It made a bunch of other claims, as TFA describes, and those other parts (that you're excluding) are what's considered debunked. And he applies that to humans without considering alphas in other animal hierarchies. He implies that the entire theoretical concept of alphas comes ONLY from wolves and once he debunks wolves (with no citations) he debunks the entire concept of what an alpha is. Riiggght.
  - cbsmith 2y ago
    > There's no redefinition here. When we refer to animals in every context, alphas are leaders. Yes, there is a redefinition. The context of Alpha Wolf was based on the notion of a dominance hierarchy, which does occur when unrelated wolves are put together in a confined space. In the wild though, they function more like a family, with no acts of dominance. The breeding pair still lead the pack, but not through dominance. https://web.archive.org/web/20051214072331/http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/2000/alstat/alstat.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20051214072331/http://www.npwrc....
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939
bbwbsb 2y ago
(Dominance-related) insecurity is being pathologically averse to being seen as weak, which leads to preferring dominance as form over dominance as function. If the meek hippie gets everything he wants from his wife, his neighbors, his peers, etc., and the physically impressive traditional man is ignored and rejected, then the hippie is more dominant (i.e., leading and getting what he wants) than the traditional man (even if he is abusing his wife the whole time she laughs at him). The actually effective strategies are available to the insecure but shunned and rejected because they cannot be tolerated, creating a self-imposed impotence. The word alpha, in almost every context I've observed, is used exclusively to refer to such dominance as form, especially in substitution for dominance as function. i.e., it is applied almost exclusively to people who are definitionally not dominant. The only exception I have encountered is women-focused kink literature which, being fantasy, maintains that dominance as form is dominance as function so as to make sexual fantasies seem more real. In short: you are describing a kink, not real life. Though I consider that you might be joking too; I really can't tell.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  >In short: you are describing a kink, not real life. Though I consider that you might be joking too; I really can't tell. The fact that you said this means you're out of touch with reality. Let me provide evidence about how wrong you are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42848939 Literally you can go to the dictionary yourself and look up the definition to see how baseless your argument is. I don't know why you people are just pulling this bs out of thin air. It can't be just BS is several people are coming from your angle despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary. Maybe it's just shared victimhood. Were you bullied by these types of people before?
  - hackable_sand 2y ago
    They are right though. You are describing a kink.
  - gilleain 2y ago
    > I don't know why you people are just pulling this bs out of thin air. "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the children who are wrong." - Principal Skinner
watwut 2y ago
> Alphas are just leaders. No they are not. There are plenty of leaders who are not alphas and they lead organizations that achieve good things. Alphas are generally just assholes who want to be leaders. They usually lead self selected friends who crave their validation and people with healthy boundaries just nope out of those systems.