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When is the West going to start standing up to Russia on these cable sabotages?
by matthewfelgate 2y ago
When is the West going to start standing up to Russia on these cable sabotages?
- vkou 2y agoI think undersea infrastructure has been a bit of a free-for-all since Sep 26th, 2022.
- willvarfar 2y agoWhilst the blowing up of the nordstream pipelines was a very well known example, there were prior damage by ships to undersea infrastructure. For example, on Jan 7th 2022 the undersea cable between Spitsbergen and Norway was severed. https://www.twz.com/43828/undersea-cable-connecting-norway-with-arctic-satellite-station-has-been-mysteriously-severed https://www.twz.com/43828/undersea-cable-connecting-norway-w... Turns out a Russian trawler had gone back and forth over the cable until it broke. This was covered in a nordic languages documentary called skuggkriget ('shadow wars') https://www.svtplay.se/uppdrag-granskning-skuggkriget https://www.svtplay.se/uppdrag-granskning-skuggkriget Of course history of this goes all the way back to the very first thing the British did in WW1 was to cut the telegraph cables between Europe and America https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42367551 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42367551
- The_Colonel 2y agoAnd all land is free-to-take since Feb 24th, 2022. Ultimately, international law has to be enforced by someone. Russia broke it many times before NS2 blew up, it's not like they were holding up before.
- pydry 2y agoI find it weird how some people think that the country who illegally invaded Iraq on a whim enabled a genocide in Gaza could possibly be trusted to enforce international law on any other matter. There was a period when a law based international order theoretically could have been implemented by the US but since 1991 it's always just followed the principle of "fuck you my guns are bigger than yours" with some bullshit legalistic pretext.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou don't need to be a just actor to enforce international law if you're strong enough to pull it off and it aligns with your interests.
- vkou 2y agoIf you think taking some Russian land in recompense is a good idea, go ahead, nobody is stopping you, there is no world police. Just let me know in advance, so that I can be on a one-way flight to Argentina, or some other southern nation.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou didn't understand my comment. My point is that the calculus for Russia isn't "is there a precedent for breaking this type of international law?", it's rather "can we get away with it?". NS2 didn't figure in the Russia's calculus when planning the undersea cable interruption.
- guappa 2y ago> Ultimately, international law has to be enforced by someone And who has more moral right to do that than the superpower that supports a genocide, invaded iraq for no actual reason (and the whistleblower who called it "suicided")? USA doesn't enforce "law", they enforce oppression and the interests of a few rich guys.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou don't need to be a moral actor to enforce a law. Even a murderer can, and should, stop another murderer from killing people.
- guappa 2y ago[flagged]
- impossiblefork 2y ago[flagged]
- suraci 2y agoThank you, Ukraine
- throwaway123199 2y ago[flagged]
- impossiblefork 2y agoOnce Azerbaijan starts up their wars again though, all the pipelines are presumably going away, so even though the Ukrainians have obviously screwed you, it's far from certain they'll really gain that much.
- EB-Barrington 2y ago[dead]
- lupusreal 2y agoGermany really should have anticipated this sort of thing happening sooner or later, but German politicians chose instead to bury their heads in the sand by buying into the whole "end of history" narrative. Making their economy so dependent on buying energy from Russia is only one manifestation of this. Another has been allowing their military to atrophy, to the point where they can no longer pull their own weight in NATO to present a credible deterrence to Russian aggression. Germany is lucky to be friendly with so many other nations that aren't run by such foolish people; Poland, Sweden, etc. At the same time, Germany is now in an uncomfortable position with America because of Germany's own poor planning.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y agoThe article shows Sweden doing exactly that, following Finland doing same in December. So The Russia-adjacent Baltic states got the message late last year.
- jononor 2y agoArguably this is exactly an example of that? There is also a sanctioning scheme on oil and various other goods. Not saying these are perfect, or even sufficient. But which measures do you have in mind?
- throwaway123199 2y ago[flagged]
- ddtaylor 2y agoAre these sabotages considered an offense worth of NATO response? If not, what is the standard there or has it not been tested with this because it's just an "Internet cable"?
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoI'm not an expert but I don't think it is, because they took place in international waters and unless there's proof to the contrary, they're done by civilian vessels. And it being done by dragging anchors makes it plausible deniability of being accidents. It's really annoying to be honest. Makes me wish for stricter laws for international waters when it comes to undersea infrastructure.
- mstade 2y agoOne of the Swedish politicians seem to think so: https://swedenherald.com/article/hultqvist-on-the-baltic-sea-activate-natos-article-4 https://swedenherald.com/article/hultqvist-on-the-baltic-sea...
- The_Colonel 2y agoNo, I don't think so. Or rather, what kind of response? Invoking Article 5 and then what? It seems like just another chapter in the hybrid warfare. NATO countries can respond in other ways, more sanctions, more military support for Ukraine, undercover actions, restricting Russian vessel movement in the Baltic Sea etc.
- lovegrenoble 2y agoWhen is the Russia going to start standing up to West on the North Stream sabotages?
- The_Colonel 2y agoIt was most likely Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine are at war.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoDidn't they already by forcing people to pay in rubles? Anyway it's not like Russia has any negotiating powers with the rest of europe at the moment, we're not buying their gas until they withdraw and repatriate.
- lovegrenoble 2y agorip germany
- drawkward 2y agoNot at least for another 4 years.
- ramchip 2y agoI highly recommend this video "A new stage of Russian hybrid warfare" from military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yabwyb14-BQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yabwyb14-BQ Basically, Russia's goal is not so much to cut some cables but rather to create fear in order to reduce support for Ukraine. A loud public response is not necessarily in our interest because it makes their attacks more effective.
- The_Colonel 2y agoIntimidation has been their modus operandi for a while. Assassinations which they only half-heartedly deny is another example of that. But it feels like this has become the new normal and isn't particularly effective anymore.
- tim333 2y agoYou've got to wonder if it'll work out well for them. They basically want to take control of Ukraine and this sort of stuff is just going to have Europe saying sod that.