8 ms·

I don’t know this is significantly different than modern engines. They require special tools and software too. The bigger issue I think is most of the cars are

I don’t know this is significantly different than modern engines. They require special tools and software too. The bigger issue I think is most of the cars are teslas, which didn’t behave like a normal automaker for better or worse. For example the work done during the pandemic to avoid supply chain crunches may result in a maintenance headache a few years from now.

lm28469 2y ago
New cars definitely have the same problem, they're computers on wheels with sensors every where. You can bring a 1980s shit box anywhere and unless it's totalled they'll get it running. For anything build after 2010: good luck. Let's see what happens when you bring your vintage 2012 tesla to a garage in the 2050s I still dream of the US/EU coming up with a standardized set of chassis/engines instead of having dozens of companies independently spending millions trying to solve the same problems Deep down I know all this complexity is needed because it generates a shit ton of money from fake competition, maintenance schedules, parts price gouging, &c. The inefficiency and waste is a feature
- jeffbee 2y ago
  At what point would you have standardized this rapidly improving category of product? Would you have frozen the interfaces around the time of the Dodge Intrepid[1]? Perhaps after considering that example you start to see the problem with standardization. You hear the same think about electric bikes, and the argument has the same fatal flaws. Current e-bikes are massively better than what was on the market 3, 5, and 10 years ago. Standardizing them at any point would have been catastrophic, and we must assume that standardization now would also be catastrophic. [1: That said, all cars are converging on the exterior shape of the Intrepid, in a process similar to carcinization among animals. Weird!]
  - longitudinal93 2y ago
    It seems it's almost time to standardize an e-bottom bracket so that motors can be interchangeable
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      I can't imagine what experience could have possibly led you to that conclusion. Current generation custom bottom bracket motors from Trek from Specialized and from Bosch and from Yamaha are all radically different and some of them are way better than others and none of them are interchangeable.
- Animats 2y ago
  > I still dream of the US/EU coming up with a standardized set of chassis/engines instead of having dozens of companies independently spending millions trying to solve the same problems BYD has done that, with their E-Axle. The E-Axle has the axle, wheels, and motor. It goes with a BYD "8 in one" electronics power box and a battery. Here is their pitch to Japanese carmakers.[1] Google translated version follows. (Google Translate has become much better at Japanese lately.) The automaker buys the E-axle, power box, and battery, plugs them together, and hooks it to the driver interface with CANbus. This approach seems to have cut the cost of BYD's cars. Other companies are now marketing E-axles for trucks.[2] Trucking has a lot of builders who start with a bare chassis and add industry-specific bodies and equipment - ambulance, tow truck, etc. BYD itself sells light truck sized versions, and Dana sells heavy truck dual axle versions. It's quite possible that a mounting point standard will emerge for this, like NEMA motor mounts or jet engine pylons. Then you can use different E-axle vendors. [1] https://byd.co.jp/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/ https://byd.co.jp/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/ [1] https://byd-co-jp.translate.goog/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://byd-co-jp.translate.goog/e-life/manufacturer_stories... [2] https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/what-is-an-e-axle-137784/ https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/what-is-an-e...
  - jamesy0ung 2y ago
    Nothing wrong with the E-Axle concept, but why would I buy any EV based on the E-Axle, when I can get the exact same thing buying the BYD vehicle for less.
    - Animats 2y ago
      It makes sense for brands that are not big enough to develop their own power train. For example, whoever buys the Jeep brand next might put a Wrangler body on a BYD powertrain. (This would be an improvement over the present Stellantis product. Stellantis, the parent of Jeep, Chrysler, Fiat, Peugeot, etc. got a Boeing-type financial CEO, who ran the business into the ground while being paid a record salary.[1]) [1] https://theweek.com/business/economy/stellantis-problems-price-carmaker-profits-sales https://theweek.com/business/economy/stellantis-problems-pri...
- FredPret 2y ago
  Standardization will be great... for 1-2 years. After that, you'll start losing out on lost innovation that wasn't allowed to happen. "Dozens of companies independently spending millions solving the same problems" only seems wasteful if you don't think about this in terms of at least a couple of steps of game theory. Competing co's come up with a variety of different solutions, leaving us in a more robust state with lots of different options. Also, good luck getting a standard that the US and EU agrees on - look at how differently the free market solved the car problem in both of those places. Europeans and Americans want different things from their vehicles.
Moto7451 2y ago
Very core parts of modern cars are essentially single use. Older engines could have the cylinders resurfaced or bored and sleeved. Newer engines have coatings and construction methods that disallow this. One scratched cylinder is now the end of a whole engine given the various matched parts that can’t be swapped block to block. In the standard case this doesn’t matter as things last a long time inside an engine. The same is probably true for EVs. When things go wrong all the repairability issues mean you’re out a car unless you’re willing to invest in repair. Is a 30K car worth a 20K repair bill? The Audi service department is happy to walk you to the sales department if not.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  You can rebuild modern engines by boring out the block and installing a sleeve of the same block material and coating material, it’s just a lot more expensive. For a valuable car like a Porsche 911 this is typically done- the sleeves alone will cost 5-10k: https://lnengineering.com/porsche-996-997-987-3-4-or-3-6-96mm-nickies.html https://lnengineering.com/porsche-996-997-987-3-4-or-3-6-96m...
  - rasz 2y ago
    Might be cheaper to send whole engine to Poland :) http://www.krasnobrodzka-racing.com/alusil/ http://www.krasnobrodzka-racing.com/alusil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_985nH-gUiU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_985nH-gUiU Alusil sleeve job ~$4K for 6 cylinder, BUT you can go ~$1500 cast iron sleeves. Mahle manufactures those sleeves in Poland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GgPPIZHl-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GgPPIZHl-c always surprising to see how they "season" new parts by letting them rust in open air to relieve casting stresses. There is a good story about BMW racing engines being build from selected used blocks just sitting rusting away behind factory building for years.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      Thank you! My daily driver is an early Boxster and this is great info on the Alusil. However, general advice I’ve seen on forums is that the iron sleeves don’t last in Porsche engines. The idea of sleeving with dissimilar metals sounds like a bad engineering idea as there will be constant relative motion with heating and cooling, and a galvinic cell near coolant passages.
wakawaka28 2y ago
The difference is, ICE car parts don't generally require replacement of everything at once. They can be made by 3rd parties, and defective parts usually break in boring ways. Batteries have none of these nice properties. You have to change the whole thing at once, it requires proprietary high tech to make a compatible battery, and any defect could burn down your house or a parking garage with unextinguishable metal fires. Yikes! It is possible for an EV to be serviced and remain operable for long enough to become an antique, but no modern EVs are built that way. Most modern ICE cars aren't built that way either but they have a much better chance at longevity because their parts don't really have a limited shelf life, and there is a large aftermarket for many of them.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  All three of those properties do apply to a Nissan Leaf. There are third party batteries and you can replace individual cells. But the lack of integrated cooling that enables this means the battery doesn't last. Better to get a car where the battery lasts the life of the vehicle. > defective parts usually break in boring ways I think this is far more true on an EV than an ICE. Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    >There are third party batteries and you can replace individual cells. I think one could argue this but the fact is that any one of those cells can destroy the battery, giving you thousands of little time bombs stacked on top of each other. The labor to change one cell is also approximately as much as to change the entire battery on any EV, and labor is a huge part of the cost of replacement. Nobody is going to take an EV apart to just change one cell. On the other hand, people do often take whole engines apart to change seals that cost $20. >But the lack of integrated cooling that enables this means the battery doesn't last. Better to get a car where the battery lasts the life of the vehicle. Better to not get an EV if you want it to last or even be a collector's item. "Life of the vehicle" can mean "practically as long as you feel like fixing it" if the design is good. > Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded. We don't know how unstable these EV batteries will become in 10, 20, or 50 years. An ICE car would not explode or burn down after such a long period, even with the heaviest use and abuse. But an EV can easily do so. Then there are the flooding and accident risks. I am seriously nervous having old lithium batteries in my house inside of old consumer gadgets, and those are tiny. EV batteries magnify that problem 1000x.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
I don't understand why consumers would WANT to shift to electric if most of the benefit of shifting to electric is consumed by corporate ratfuckery
- RevEng 2y ago
  I encourage you to try driving one. Even if you don't care about the possibilities for improved energy efficiency and reduced pollution, or don't care for the latest technology, the driving experience is wonderful. Instant power, smooth, quiet. Up here in Canada it's even better: no spending 10 minutes for it to warm up - about 60 seconds before it's blowing hot air and otherwise no need to warm up an engine. I've driven older manual vehicles for two decades, but after two years driving an EV I never want to go back.
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    Even if the driving experience is better, the charging infrastructure isn’t there yet. Outside SuperChsrgers, the stations are of inconsistent quality/availability. And if you don’t own a garage/driveway, you don’t get the one big upside - topping up at home.
    - RevEng 2y ago
      I completely agree, but that's something that will change over time, especially as more people have EVs. Consider what it was like when the first ICEs came out: there weren't gas stations every mile like there is today; they popped up more often as more people had more vehicles and drove them further. The same will happen with EV charging stations. I'll be the first to admit that the infrastructure is lacking. I live in the Canadian prairies. There are only a few cities and there are towns every 10-20 minutes apart. Every town has a gas station (if they are open when you are driving through), but the same can't be said for charging stations. Thankfully there are enough stations for me to drive anywhere from Edmonton to Winnipeg without getting stranded, but only just. In two years of ownership over yet to run into a situation where the only chargers are all down, and I've only once seen a single machine that is down. Many of the stations are about 100km apart and my vehicle's range is practically 250km (from 90% to 20%), down to 200km in winter. It also doesn't help that within Saskatchewan almost all of those charges are the original 50kW, meaning it takes about an hour to charge every two hours of driving. It's definitely at the early adopter stage. But my car is capable of charging at 227kW. Stopping at a more modern 200kW charger it only takes 15 minutes - that's just enough time to use the washroom and grab a snack. Even with the 50kW charges all I end up doing is sitting down for a quick burger or sandwich. I don't mind the every two hours part at all; even with my ICE I would stop everyone two hours for washroom and a stretch and a snack, and that takes 15 minutes anyway. Having home charging definitely makes a huge difference. I never fast charge unless traveling to see family. Within the city I plug it in at home every few days just to top it up. The efficiency really shows itself in the city. In my area the winters are cold enough that everybody plus in their cars to keep their engine block warm. Availability is universal at homes, including apartment buildings. Using even 120V charging is practical at these places and that's plenty to keep a vehicle topped up for daily city driving. Still, I won't deny that at-home level 2 driving really makes it a painless experience. As far as practically today, I agree, it's not easy for everyone just yet. As far as the general sentiment that EVs are worse vehicles, I encourage people to try driving one. The people who think they are slow and weak couldn't be any more wrong. My lowly SUV has the power and torque of a large truck, but without the noise and smoke. I absolutely love driving it and I never want to go back. I expect that as more people have them, infrastructure will follow and that will make them even more accessible to more people. That's just how new technologies work. EVs are just at the point of crossing the chasm as they say. It won't be long until they are commonplace. Vehicle manufacturers are already going all in.

lm28469 2y ago

New cars definitely have the same problem, they're computers on wheels with sensors every where. You can bring a 1980s shit box anywhere and unless it's totalled they'll get it running. For anything build after 2010: good luck. Let's see what happens when you bring your vintage 2012 tesla to a garage in the 2050s I still dream of the US/EU coming up with a standardized set of chassis/engines instead of having dozens of companies independently spending millions trying to solve the same problems Deep down I know all this complexity is needed because it generates a shit ton of money from fake competition, maintenance schedules, parts price gouging, &c. The inefficiency and waste is a feature

jeffbee 2y ago
At what point would you have standardized this rapidly improving category of product? Would you have frozen the interfaces around the time of the Dodge Intrepid[1]? Perhaps after considering that example you start to see the problem with standardization. You hear the same think about electric bikes, and the argument has the same fatal flaws. Current e-bikes are massively better than what was on the market 3, 5, and 10 years ago. Standardizing them at any point would have been catastrophic, and we must assume that standardization now would also be catastrophic. [1: That said, all cars are converging on the exterior shape of the Intrepid, in a process similar to carcinization among animals. Weird!]
- longitudinal93 2y ago
  It seems it's almost time to standardize an e-bottom bracket so that motors can be interchangeable
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    I can't imagine what experience could have possibly led you to that conclusion. Current generation custom bottom bracket motors from Trek from Specialized and from Bosch and from Yamaha are all radically different and some of them are way better than others and none of them are interchangeable.
Animats 2y ago
> I still dream of the US/EU coming up with a standardized set of chassis/engines instead of having dozens of companies independently spending millions trying to solve the same problems BYD has done that, with their E-Axle. The E-Axle has the axle, wheels, and motor. It goes with a BYD "8 in one" electronics power box and a battery. Here is their pitch to Japanese carmakers.[1] Google translated version follows. (Google Translate has become much better at Japanese lately.) The automaker buys the E-axle, power box, and battery, plugs them together, and hooks it to the driver interface with CANbus. This approach seems to have cut the cost of BYD's cars. Other companies are now marketing E-axles for trucks.[2] Trucking has a lot of builders who start with a bare chassis and add industry-specific bodies and equipment - ambulance, tow truck, etc. BYD itself sells light truck sized versions, and Dana sells heavy truck dual axle versions. It's quite possible that a mounting point standard will emerge for this, like NEMA motor mounts or jet engine pylons. Then you can use different E-axle vendors. [1] https://byd.co.jp/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/ https://byd.co.jp/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/ [1] https://byd-co-jp.translate.goog/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://byd-co-jp.translate.goog/e-life/manufacturer_stories... [2] https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/what-is-an-e-axle-137784/ https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/what-is-an-e...
- jamesy0ung 2y ago
  Nothing wrong with the E-Axle concept, but why would I buy any EV based on the E-Axle, when I can get the exact same thing buying the BYD vehicle for less.
  - Animats 2y ago
    It makes sense for brands that are not big enough to develop their own power train. For example, whoever buys the Jeep brand next might put a Wrangler body on a BYD powertrain. (This would be an improvement over the present Stellantis product. Stellantis, the parent of Jeep, Chrysler, Fiat, Peugeot, etc. got a Boeing-type financial CEO, who ran the business into the ground while being paid a record salary.[1]) [1] https://theweek.com/business/economy/stellantis-problems-price-carmaker-profits-sales https://theweek.com/business/economy/stellantis-problems-pri...
FredPret 2y ago
Standardization will be great... for 1-2 years. After that, you'll start losing out on lost innovation that wasn't allowed to happen. "Dozens of companies independently spending millions solving the same problems" only seems wasteful if you don't think about this in terms of at least a couple of steps of game theory. Competing co's come up with a variety of different solutions, leaving us in a more robust state with lots of different options. Also, good luck getting a standard that the US and EU agrees on - look at how differently the free market solved the car problem in both of those places. Europeans and Americans want different things from their vehicles.

Moto7451 2y ago

Very core parts of modern cars are essentially single use. Older engines could have the cylinders resurfaced or bored and sleeved. Newer engines have coatings and construction methods that disallow this. One scratched cylinder is now the end of a whole engine given the various matched parts that can’t be swapped block to block. In the standard case this doesn’t matter as things last a long time inside an engine. The same is probably true for EVs. When things go wrong all the repairability issues mean you’re out a car unless you’re willing to invest in repair. Is a 30K car worth a 20K repair bill? The Audi service department is happy to walk you to the sales department if not.

_yb2s 2y ago
You can rebuild modern engines by boring out the block and installing a sleeve of the same block material and coating material, it’s just a lot more expensive. For a valuable car like a Porsche 911 this is typically done- the sleeves alone will cost 5-10k: https://lnengineering.com/porsche-996-997-987-3-4-or-3-6-96mm-nickies.html https://lnengineering.com/porsche-996-997-987-3-4-or-3-6-96m...
- rasz 2y ago
  Might be cheaper to send whole engine to Poland :) http://www.krasnobrodzka-racing.com/alusil/ http://www.krasnobrodzka-racing.com/alusil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_985nH-gUiU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_985nH-gUiU Alusil sleeve job ~$4K for 6 cylinder, BUT you can go ~$1500 cast iron sleeves. Mahle manufactures those sleeves in Poland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GgPPIZHl-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GgPPIZHl-c always surprising to see how they "season" new parts by letting them rust in open air to relieve casting stresses. There is a good story about BMW racing engines being build from selected used blocks just sitting rusting away behind factory building for years.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Thank you! My daily driver is an early Boxster and this is great info on the Alusil. However, general advice I’ve seen on forums is that the iron sleeves don’t last in Porsche engines. The idea of sleeving with dissimilar metals sounds like a bad engineering idea as there will be constant relative motion with heating and cooling, and a galvinic cell near coolant passages.

wakawaka28 2y ago

The difference is, ICE car parts don't generally require replacement of everything at once. They can be made by 3rd parties, and defective parts usually break in boring ways. Batteries have none of these nice properties. You have to change the whole thing at once, it requires proprietary high tech to make a compatible battery, and any defect could burn down your house or a parking garage with unextinguishable metal fires. Yikes! It is possible for an EV to be serviced and remain operable for long enough to become an antique, but no modern EVs are built that way. Most modern ICE cars aren't built that way either but they have a much better chance at longevity because their parts don't really have a limited shelf life, and there is a large aftermarket for many of them.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
All three of those properties do apply to a Nissan Leaf. There are third party batteries and you can replace individual cells. But the lack of integrated cooling that enables this means the battery doesn't last. Better to get a car where the battery lasts the life of the vehicle. > defective parts usually break in boring ways I think this is far more true on an EV than an ICE. Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded.
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  >There are third party batteries and you can replace individual cells. I think one could argue this but the fact is that any one of those cells can destroy the battery, giving you thousands of little time bombs stacked on top of each other. The labor to change one cell is also approximately as much as to change the entire battery on any EV, and labor is a huge part of the cost of replacement. Nobody is going to take an EV apart to just change one cell. On the other hand, people do often take whole engines apart to change seals that cost $20. >But the lack of integrated cooling that enables this means the battery doesn't last. Better to get a car where the battery lasts the life of the vehicle. Better to not get an EV if you want it to last or even be a collector's item. "Life of the vehicle" can mean "practically as long as you feel like fixing it" if the design is good. > Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded. We don't know how unstable these EV batteries will become in 10, 20, or 50 years. An ICE car would not explode or burn down after such a long period, even with the heaviest use and abuse. But an EV can easily do so. Then there are the flooding and accident risks. I am seriously nervous having old lithium batteries in my house inside of old consumer gadgets, and those are tiny. EV batteries magnify that problem 1000x.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago

I don't understand why consumers would WANT to shift to electric if most of the benefit of shifting to electric is consumed by corporate ratfuckery

RevEng 2y ago
I encourage you to try driving one. Even if you don't care about the possibilities for improved energy efficiency and reduced pollution, or don't care for the latest technology, the driving experience is wonderful. Instant power, smooth, quiet. Up here in Canada it's even better: no spending 10 minutes for it to warm up - about 60 seconds before it's blowing hot air and otherwise no need to warm up an engine. I've driven older manual vehicles for two decades, but after two years driving an EV I never want to go back.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  Even if the driving experience is better, the charging infrastructure isn’t there yet. Outside SuperChsrgers, the stations are of inconsistent quality/availability. And if you don’t own a garage/driveway, you don’t get the one big upside - topping up at home.
  - RevEng 2y ago
    I completely agree, but that's something that will change over time, especially as more people have EVs. Consider what it was like when the first ICEs came out: there weren't gas stations every mile like there is today; they popped up more often as more people had more vehicles and drove them further. The same will happen with EV charging stations. I'll be the first to admit that the infrastructure is lacking. I live in the Canadian prairies. There are only a few cities and there are towns every 10-20 minutes apart. Every town has a gas station (if they are open when you are driving through), but the same can't be said for charging stations. Thankfully there are enough stations for me to drive anywhere from Edmonton to Winnipeg without getting stranded, but only just. In two years of ownership over yet to run into a situation where the only chargers are all down, and I've only once seen a single machine that is down. Many of the stations are about 100km apart and my vehicle's range is practically 250km (from 90% to 20%), down to 200km in winter. It also doesn't help that within Saskatchewan almost all of those charges are the original 50kW, meaning it takes about an hour to charge every two hours of driving. It's definitely at the early adopter stage. But my car is capable of charging at 227kW. Stopping at a more modern 200kW charger it only takes 15 minutes - that's just enough time to use the washroom and grab a snack. Even with the 50kW charges all I end up doing is sitting down for a quick burger or sandwich. I don't mind the every two hours part at all; even with my ICE I would stop everyone two hours for washroom and a stretch and a snack, and that takes 15 minutes anyway. Having home charging definitely makes a huge difference. I never fast charge unless traveling to see family. Within the city I plug it in at home every few days just to top it up. The efficiency really shows itself in the city. In my area the winters are cold enough that everybody plus in their cars to keep their engine block warm. Availability is universal at homes, including apartment buildings. Using even 120V charging is practical at these places and that's plenty to keep a vehicle topped up for daily city driving. Still, I won't deny that at-home level 2 driving really makes it a painless experience. As far as practically today, I agree, it's not easy for everyone just yet. As far as the general sentiment that EVs are worse vehicles, I encourage people to try driving one. The people who think they are slow and weak couldn't be any more wrong. My lowly SUV has the power and torque of a large truck, but without the noise and smoke. I absolutely love driving it and I never want to go back. I expect that as more people have them, infrastructure will follow and that will make them even more accessible to more people. That's just how new technologies work. EVs are just at the point of crossing the chasm as they say. It won't be long until they are commonplace. Vehicle manufacturers are already going all in.