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Where you’re going to find disagreement with a significant portion of the population is if fifteen seconds of a low rumble of a car passing by is “disturbing th

Where you’re going to find disagreement with a significant portion of the population is if fifteen seconds of a low rumble of a car passing by is “disturbing the peace”. You cannot expect complete silence at all hours of the day, and to do so is naive. Highways and semis create by far the most noise pollution. Dogs bark, people have parties outside, etc. The world is not a place requiring sterilization of the senses.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
Surely, most would agree there is a difference between a productive activity making noise and making noise specifically to disturb?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. What about a recreational activity that has no intention to be disruptive?
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I’m not buying that people modify their vehicles to be extra noisy for any reason other than to impose their presence on others.
    - mPReDiToR 2y ago
      With motorcycles it's of incalculable benefit to be heard early on because we're rarely seen until the crash.
      - djbusby 2y ago
        Loud bikes are not safer. 50+ years of crash data shows this.
        thrill 2y ago
        I'm unaware of motorcycle crash data that detailed measured exhaust decibel levels.
        djbusby 2y ago
        Make and Model of bike is included.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        Usually there are after-market modifications (like, just take the muffler off) done which make the sound louder so it’s kinda moot that they include the make and model of the presumably legal production vehicles. I don’t know if the loud-exhaust bikers are correct about the facts but I do know it’s pointless to try convincing them otherwise; if they genuinely believe it’s safer, from their perspective you’re just demanding that they make an unsafe decision for your personal comfort. Not gonna happen.
    - multimoon 2y ago
      This is extremely short sighted. I’ve owned several cars that I have modified or have factory exhausts that are audible, and it’s always been purely because I enjoy the sound, but I’ve never made them obnoxious or deafening. Car guys don’t do things to annoy other people, they do it because it brings them happiness and joy, just like anyone’s hobby does for them. Thinking that everything in the world that disturbs you was done in malice is a pretty dismal worldview.
      - bscphil 2y ago
        > I’ve never made them obnoxious or deafening This reminds me of how cigarette smokers famously don't know how horrible they smell to everyone around them, and think it's "fine", something they do to bring themselves "happiness and joy", and so forth. Maybe if the people around you who aren't car enthusiasts find your car obnoxious and deafening, it's just obnoxious and deafening. Personally, I'd settle for a compromise where no one is allowed to drive one of these vehicles down a street with private residences on it after 10 p.m.
        ssl-3 2y ago
        Man, the smoking thing. When I was a kid, everyone smoked everywhere. And I spent decades smoking cigarettes, or cigars. I'd quit for a few months or a year at different times, but in my corner of society I was still around tobacco smoke even when I wasn't smoking myself. It was impossible to evade. Because I was always exposed to it, I never really became aware of the stink. I switched to vapes this time 'round. And unlike other times in the past when I didn't smoke tobacco, public smoking is pretty much forgotten in my corner of society here in 2024. So now, at this ripe middle age, I've finally become aware of the stink. And I'm certainly not going to go on some anti-smoking crusade, but... Dang, some people who smoke really stink. It's an effervescent odor that just radiates off of them in seemingly every direction, and tickles the insides of your nose in a bad way, and you can detect it sometimes from twenty feet away or more. I'm really sorry to have done that to others. I had no idea it was like this.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      They enjoy it and they don't care that you don't like it.
- multimoon 2y ago
  The purpose of an exhaust is not to disturb. I think you’re straw manning my argument, where I conceded that absolutely some people go too far and are obnoxious. The civic at 2am example is a great one, street racing late at night is another, and I agree with you that’s unnecessary. My argument was simply that I have yet to see an implementation in proposal that stops the above, without also making the factory exhaust that’s barely above road noise level on your average sports car illegal. Where do you draw the line? How do you get people to agree on where the line is? Do you make exceptions for things like performance vehicles/supercars? You’re not going to find consensus among the population besides for most of us it’s a non-issue that nobody even thinks about.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    I'm not sure what's so hard about the line. Most municipalities already have the line well defined. They have noise limits that are different in residential and industrial areas, and are lower during normal sleep hours. If it means that you can't stomp on the accelerator in a residential area in your stock performance vehicle at night, so be it. Yes, some legally stock vehicles are loud when driven hard. So don't drive them hard when that's inappropriate.
    - multimoon 2y ago
      Yes - I agree with you. Some of the commenters above have conflated “an annoying person drives a straight piped mustang through my neighborhood” into “every car is bad”.
munk-a 2y ago
Do those noises add anything though? I feel like if my life had been entirely devoid of "vroom vroom" sounds I wouldn't have missed anything important. Noise pollution from dogs and people having a party outside is an acceptable side effect of a party - but it's not an aspect of a party that I find important. If it was trivial to make sounds from my house end at my property line I'd be happy to do so.
stonesthrowaway 2y ago
> Highways and semis create by far the most noise pollution. Semis conduct work and generally don't drive through residential neighborhoods. Intentionally loud vehicles seem to prefer residential neighborhoods and produce no positive work but annoy others and cause unnecessary pollution ( both noise and air ). Sirens for police cars and emergencies are necessary. Insecure people overcompensating with loud cars and motorcycles are unnecessary. > The world is not a place requiring sterilization of the senses. In no sense does banning intentionally loud vehicles "sterilize" the world of sound. As you noted, dogs bark, people have parties outside, etc. People who drive loud vehicles or motorcycles, especially through residential areas, should be fined for the 1st offense and imprisoned for the second offense. And mechanics who help create such cars should have their businesses shut. The people with these loud vehicles brought the hate on themselves by intentionally annoying people. If people like loud cars, then they should drive them in specifically designated race tracks.
- multimoon 2y ago
  What a narrow view of the world. I’m sure that there are things that you do that others find irritating, that doesn’t mean your hobby has any less merit or value to you. I’m also sure you’re conflating the one or two obnoxious vehicles you’ve heard into “any vehicle that I can hear at all is now bad”. As many others pointed out - motorcycles is even mostly considered a point of road safety to be loud. The resistance you get to your argument is because instead of simply asking your neighbor to start their car quietly (most new cars have valvetronic exhausts and can do this) you immediately jump to “I want to jail another person and take away their freedom because they’ve inconvenienced me momentarily”.
  - stonesthrowaway 2y ago
    > I’m also sure you’re conflating the one or two obnoxious vehicles you’ve heard into “any vehicle that I can hear at all is now bad” That must be why I specifically stated police sirens, semis, etc are fine? I've nothing against "loud" cars that have a purpose. I've something against people intentionally modifying their cars to be loud. > The resistance you get to your argument is because instead of simply asking your neighbor to start their car quietly (most new cars have valvetronic exhausts and can do this) you immediately jump to “I want to jail another person and take away their freedom”. You really think I'm talking about people starting their cars? You know what people are complaining about. You are being intentionally dense here. Let me guess, you make a living modifying cars to be extremely loud. Right?
ssl-3 2y ago
I live near a busy intersection that has a lot of semi truck traffic (and passenger car traffic, alike). I don't notice fifteen seconds of low rumble just cruising by -- that's not the problem at all. The problem is that of the intermittent noise of the occasional loud vehicle accelerating from a stop, and/or exiting a turn.

lotsofpulp 2y ago

Surely, most would agree there is a difference between a productive activity making noise and making noise specifically to disturb?

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
That's a false dichotomy. What about a recreational activity that has no intention to be disruptive?
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I’m not buying that people modify their vehicles to be extra noisy for any reason other than to impose their presence on others.
  - mPReDiToR 2y ago
    With motorcycles it's of incalculable benefit to be heard early on because we're rarely seen until the crash.
    - djbusby 2y ago
      Loud bikes are not safer. 50+ years of crash data shows this.
      - thrill 2y ago
        I'm unaware of motorcycle crash data that detailed measured exhaust decibel levels.
        djbusby 2y ago
        Make and Model of bike is included.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        Usually there are after-market modifications (like, just take the muffler off) done which make the sound louder so it’s kinda moot that they include the make and model of the presumably legal production vehicles. I don’t know if the loud-exhaust bikers are correct about the facts but I do know it’s pointless to try convincing them otherwise; if they genuinely believe it’s safer, from their perspective you’re just demanding that they make an unsafe decision for your personal comfort. Not gonna happen.
  - multimoon 2y ago
    This is extremely short sighted. I’ve owned several cars that I have modified or have factory exhausts that are audible, and it’s always been purely because I enjoy the sound, but I’ve never made them obnoxious or deafening. Car guys don’t do things to annoy other people, they do it because it brings them happiness and joy, just like anyone’s hobby does for them. Thinking that everything in the world that disturbs you was done in malice is a pretty dismal worldview.
    - bscphil 2y ago
      > I’ve never made them obnoxious or deafening This reminds me of how cigarette smokers famously don't know how horrible they smell to everyone around them, and think it's "fine", something they do to bring themselves "happiness and joy", and so forth. Maybe if the people around you who aren't car enthusiasts find your car obnoxious and deafening, it's just obnoxious and deafening. Personally, I'd settle for a compromise where no one is allowed to drive one of these vehicles down a street with private residences on it after 10 p.m.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        Man, the smoking thing. When I was a kid, everyone smoked everywhere. And I spent decades smoking cigarettes, or cigars. I'd quit for a few months or a year at different times, but in my corner of society I was still around tobacco smoke even when I wasn't smoking myself. It was impossible to evade. Because I was always exposed to it, I never really became aware of the stink. I switched to vapes this time 'round. And unlike other times in the past when I didn't smoke tobacco, public smoking is pretty much forgotten in my corner of society here in 2024. So now, at this ripe middle age, I've finally become aware of the stink. And I'm certainly not going to go on some anti-smoking crusade, but... Dang, some people who smoke really stink. It's an effervescent odor that just radiates off of them in seemingly every direction, and tickles the insides of your nose in a bad way, and you can detect it sometimes from twenty feet away or more. I'm really sorry to have done that to others. I had no idea it was like this.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    They enjoy it and they don't care that you don't like it.
multimoon 2y ago
The purpose of an exhaust is not to disturb. I think you’re straw manning my argument, where I conceded that absolutely some people go too far and are obnoxious. The civic at 2am example is a great one, street racing late at night is another, and I agree with you that’s unnecessary. My argument was simply that I have yet to see an implementation in proposal that stops the above, without also making the factory exhaust that’s barely above road noise level on your average sports car illegal. Where do you draw the line? How do you get people to agree on where the line is? Do you make exceptions for things like performance vehicles/supercars? You’re not going to find consensus among the population besides for most of us it’s a non-issue that nobody even thinks about.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  I'm not sure what's so hard about the line. Most municipalities already have the line well defined. They have noise limits that are different in residential and industrial areas, and are lower during normal sleep hours. If it means that you can't stomp on the accelerator in a residential area in your stock performance vehicle at night, so be it. Yes, some legally stock vehicles are loud when driven hard. So don't drive them hard when that's inappropriate.
  - multimoon 2y ago
    Yes - I agree with you. Some of the commenters above have conflated “an annoying person drives a straight piped mustang through my neighborhood” into “every car is bad”.

munk-a 2y ago

Do those noises add anything though? I feel like if my life had been entirely devoid of "vroom vroom" sounds I wouldn't have missed anything important. Noise pollution from dogs and people having a party outside is an acceptable side effect of a party - but it's not an aspect of a party that I find important. If it was trivial to make sounds from my house end at my property line I'd be happy to do so.

stonesthrowaway 2y ago

> Highways and semis create by far the most noise pollution. Semis conduct work and generally don't drive through residential neighborhoods. Intentionally loud vehicles seem to prefer residential neighborhoods and produce no positive work but annoy others and cause unnecessary pollution ( both noise and air ). Sirens for police cars and emergencies are necessary. Insecure people overcompensating with loud cars and motorcycles are unnecessary. > The world is not a place requiring sterilization of the senses. In no sense does banning intentionally loud vehicles "sterilize" the world of sound. As you noted, dogs bark, people have parties outside, etc. People who drive loud vehicles or motorcycles, especially through residential areas, should be fined for the 1st offense and imprisoned for the second offense. And mechanics who help create such cars should have their businesses shut. The people with these loud vehicles brought the hate on themselves by intentionally annoying people. If people like loud cars, then they should drive them in specifically designated race tracks.

multimoon 2y ago
What a narrow view of the world. I’m sure that there are things that you do that others find irritating, that doesn’t mean your hobby has any less merit or value to you. I’m also sure you’re conflating the one or two obnoxious vehicles you’ve heard into “any vehicle that I can hear at all is now bad”. As many others pointed out - motorcycles is even mostly considered a point of road safety to be loud. The resistance you get to your argument is because instead of simply asking your neighbor to start their car quietly (most new cars have valvetronic exhausts and can do this) you immediately jump to “I want to jail another person and take away their freedom because they’ve inconvenienced me momentarily”.
- stonesthrowaway 2y ago
  > I’m also sure you’re conflating the one or two obnoxious vehicles you’ve heard into “any vehicle that I can hear at all is now bad” That must be why I specifically stated police sirens, semis, etc are fine? I've nothing against "loud" cars that have a purpose. I've something against people intentionally modifying their cars to be loud. > The resistance you get to your argument is because instead of simply asking your neighbor to start their car quietly (most new cars have valvetronic exhausts and can do this) you immediately jump to “I want to jail another person and take away their freedom”. You really think I'm talking about people starting their cars? You know what people are complaining about. You are being intentionally dense here. Let me guess, you make a living modifying cars to be extremely loud. Right?

ssl-3 2y ago

I live near a busy intersection that has a lot of semi truck traffic (and passenger car traffic, alike). I don't notice fifteen seconds of low rumble just cruising by -- that's not the problem at all. The problem is that of the intermittent noise of the occasional loud vehicle accelerating from a stop, and/or exiting a turn.