10 ms·

Majora's Mask decompilation project reaches 100% completion

davidguetta 2y ago
Reading the thread: How is it even illegal to decompile ? The binary is readable so what is it wrong to say oh i have a code that produces the same binary ? Especially if you dont monetize
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Being able to read something does not, in general, give you automatic legal rights to produce copies of that thing (sometimes even for yourself) regardless of monetization. Whether it should is often a matter of circumstantial specifics and location combined with a good dose of opinion. Many times it's also less about "what" and more about "how" you've done it, which is why these projects are sure to use certain wording about their methodology and require the source material to produce the asset portions (or sometimes, the source material to produce anything at all). More often the comments are less interested in "what is the actual legality" and more "how will Nintendo use the legal system to take it down". Often Nintendo is probably on the "correct" side (as in the law agrees this is the currently intended interpretation) but even more often people just don't want to go to years of court about their hobby fan project.
Tiberium 2y ago
> Majora's Mask (NTSC-U version) can now be included in the list of 100% decompiled projects, which servers as an open-source clean room recreation of the game's code I'm a bit confused - is it actually clean room if they basically checked the disassembled compiled binary and wrote or generated (the actual project page mentions mips_to_c) the C code that compiles into 100% exact same binary? I was under the impression that "clean room" meant reimplementations that were made by only looking at the results (in this case - how the game actually plays), not at the original binaries.
- Hamuko 2y ago
  I've seen projects like these use the term "clean room" extremely liberally. Possibly just to throw up a shield ("it's clean room so you can't take it down!"). I think the same was even claimed for the re3 (GTA III decompilation) project, which has been since taken down.
  - aspenmayer 2y ago
    This re3? https://github.com/halpz/re3 https://github.com/halpz/re3
    - favorited 2y ago
      That's someone who re-posted their own fork – the original repo <https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3 https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3> was taken down in a DMCA action. The only commits they've added are to change the README links to point to their repository.
- chc4 2y ago
  They aren't clean room. They go based off of disassembly, which doesn't have the same legal defense as true clean room reimplementations. Game hackers have folklore-esque beliefs about the legality of things like this that aren't true, though, and aren't going to stop making various claims.
  - dcow 2y ago
    Clean room is a legal defense that argues “I implemented similar functionality without consulting the copyrighted work” and sometimes with the addition of “or ever having viewed the original copyrighted work”. For video games the binary is the covered work, not its disassembly. And disassembly is covered by the DMCA and explicitly allowed for this type of purpose, so that’s not illegal at least. I can see the argument if the clean agent is just operating off the disassembly and a different person is evaluating success. After all, how does one communicate the goal of a “traditional” source code clean room operation? Well someone has to disassemble the target functionality into a natural language description of the algorithm and communicate the requirements and expected outcomes, the functions if you will, to the agents as well as check success. Why does using a computer to aid that process make things questionable? IMO the whole notion of a clean room for copyright purposes is weird across the board. Not just when punks do it.
reilly3000 2y ago
Should we have a countdown until the Nintendo legal team kills this work? Or is sharing decompilation somehow immune from copyright enforcement?
- UberFly 2y ago
  The real question.
- broof 2y ago
  There are multiple pokemon decompilations that have been around for years which people are using to make their own fan games with a lot of popularity. Some streamers of these games are even invited to official events so it seems like it not necessarily. Any attempt to monetize it usually gets a project shut down though.
- soraminazuki 2y ago
  I wish it was legal though. This game has been released more than two whole decades ago. Those who spent their childhood playing it now have kids, or maybe even grandchildren! Many of us won't live to see the day its copyright finally expires and that's totally bonkers. A significant portion of games from that era are probably effectively lost at this point. The current system can't be allowed to continue.
zamadatix 2y ago
Decompilations and recompilations have been really interesting lately. They seem largely driven by fans interested in replaying old content in ways the original sources haven't provided. E.g. rather than "run normal N64 Mario and Zelda on your switch" you can run them at 4k120 FPS widescreen with all sorts of QoL improvements, modifications, or new gameplay modes. Even extremely classic titles like Super Mario Bros. 3 or The Legend of Zelda a Link to the Past get widescreen hacks. Of course there are other benefits too that some use for playing the originals as they were. Some just want to more easily read through the games code to figure out how it works, hunt for new glitches, figure out why that odd thing in a speedrun happens. Others want to mine for cut/missing content. I personally hope https://zeldaret.github.io/tww/ https://zeldaret.github.io/tww/ gets completed this decade. Nintendo has at least made an actual remake of this game, adding a certain level of the improvements and enhancements, but there are still more which would be nice (more than 30 FPS anyone?) and I can only imagine what kinds of customizations would be made feasible.
- emchammer 2y ago
  Is recompilation the right word for this? Reprogramming? I am not even into video games, and I am still so impressed by the efforts I have seen. I saw a ray-traced version of Mario 64 that looks incredible. There are also some retranslation groups who also get an A+, for far more literate translations with the sex and world mythology than the original translations that were softened for the American audience. I believe that one group was called DeJap Translations and they were obviously well-educated.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    Recompilations are a separate methodology/category from the decompilations e.g. on the N64 there is this parent project https://github.com/N64Recomp/N64Recomp https://github.com/N64Recomp/N64Recomp
- thejazzman 2y ago
  it is AWE-MAZING playing things like Ocarina of Time in 4K with upgraded textures blah blah blah blah. and that it comes from the likes of these efforts instead of Nintendo just selling us the damn thing is all the more awe-inspiring from me. I've been waiting and waiting for Majora's Mask to catch up. I got the recompilation and all, but no textures and other bells and whistles YET. Glad their Switch legislation hasn't killed this yet.

Reading the thread: How is it even illegal to decompile ? The binary is readable so what is it wrong to say oh i have a code that produces the same binary ? Especially if you dont monetize

zamadatix 2y ago
Being able to read something does not, in general, give you automatic legal rights to produce copies of that thing (sometimes even for yourself) regardless of monetization. Whether it should is often a matter of circumstantial specifics and location combined with a good dose of opinion. Many times it's also less about "what" and more about "how" you've done it, which is why these projects are sure to use certain wording about their methodology and require the source material to produce the asset portions (or sometimes, the source material to produce anything at all). More often the comments are less interested in "what is the actual legality" and more "how will Nintendo use the legal system to take it down". Often Nintendo is probably on the "correct" side (as in the law agrees this is the currently intended interpretation) but even more often people just don't want to go to years of court about their hobby fan project.

Tiberium 2y ago

> Majora's Mask (NTSC-U version) can now be included in the list of 100% decompiled projects, which servers as an open-source clean room recreation of the game's code I'm a bit confused - is it actually clean room if they basically checked the disassembled compiled binary and wrote or generated (the actual project page mentions mips_to_c) the C code that compiles into 100% exact same binary? I was under the impression that "clean room" meant reimplementations that were made by only looking at the results (in this case - how the game actually plays), not at the original binaries.

Hamuko 2y ago
I've seen projects like these use the term "clean room" extremely liberally. Possibly just to throw up a shield ("it's clean room so you can't take it down!"). I think the same was even claimed for the re3 (GTA III decompilation) project, which has been since taken down.
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  This re3? https://github.com/halpz/re3 https://github.com/halpz/re3
  - favorited 2y ago
    That's someone who re-posted their own fork – the original repo <https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3 https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3> was taken down in a DMCA action. The only commits they've added are to change the README links to point to their repository.
chc4 2y ago
They aren't clean room. They go based off of disassembly, which doesn't have the same legal defense as true clean room reimplementations. Game hackers have folklore-esque beliefs about the legality of things like this that aren't true, though, and aren't going to stop making various claims.
- dcow 2y ago
  Clean room is a legal defense that argues “I implemented similar functionality without consulting the copyrighted work” and sometimes with the addition of “or ever having viewed the original copyrighted work”. For video games the binary is the covered work, not its disassembly. And disassembly is covered by the DMCA and explicitly allowed for this type of purpose, so that’s not illegal at least. I can see the argument if the clean agent is just operating off the disassembly and a different person is evaluating success. After all, how does one communicate the goal of a “traditional” source code clean room operation? Well someone has to disassemble the target functionality into a natural language description of the algorithm and communicate the requirements and expected outcomes, the functions if you will, to the agents as well as check success. Why does using a computer to aid that process make things questionable? IMO the whole notion of a clean room for copyright purposes is weird across the board. Not just when punks do it.

reilly3000 2y ago

Should we have a countdown until the Nintendo legal team kills this work? Or is sharing decompilation somehow immune from copyright enforcement?

UberFly 2y ago
The real question.
broof 2y ago
There are multiple pokemon decompilations that have been around for years which people are using to make their own fan games with a lot of popularity. Some streamers of these games are even invited to official events so it seems like it not necessarily. Any attempt to monetize it usually gets a project shut down though.
soraminazuki 2y ago
I wish it was legal though. This game has been released more than two whole decades ago. Those who spent their childhood playing it now have kids, or maybe even grandchildren! Many of us won't live to see the day its copyright finally expires and that's totally bonkers. A significant portion of games from that era are probably effectively lost at this point. The current system can't be allowed to continue.

zamadatix 2y ago

Decompilations and recompilations have been really interesting lately. They seem largely driven by fans interested in replaying old content in ways the original sources haven't provided. E.g. rather than "run normal N64 Mario and Zelda on your switch" you can run them at 4k120 FPS widescreen with all sorts of QoL improvements, modifications, or new gameplay modes. Even extremely classic titles like Super Mario Bros. 3 or The Legend of Zelda a Link to the Past get widescreen hacks. Of course there are other benefits too that some use for playing the originals as they were. Some just want to more easily read through the games code to figure out how it works, hunt for new glitches, figure out why that odd thing in a speedrun happens. Others want to mine for cut/missing content. I personally hope https://zeldaret.github.io/tww/ https://zeldaret.github.io/tww/ gets completed this decade. Nintendo has at least made an actual remake of this game, adding a certain level of the improvements and enhancements, but there are still more which would be nice (more than 30 FPS anyone?) and I can only imagine what kinds of customizations would be made feasible.

emchammer 2y ago
Is recompilation the right word for this? Reprogramming? I am not even into video games, and I am still so impressed by the efforts I have seen. I saw a ray-traced version of Mario 64 that looks incredible. There are also some retranslation groups who also get an A+, for far more literate translations with the sex and world mythology than the original translations that were softened for the American audience. I believe that one group was called DeJap Translations and they were obviously well-educated.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Recompilations are a separate methodology/category from the decompilations e.g. on the N64 there is this parent project https://github.com/N64Recomp/N64Recomp https://github.com/N64Recomp/N64Recomp
thejazzman 2y ago
it is AWE-MAZING playing things like Ocarina of Time in 4K with upgraded textures blah blah blah blah. and that it comes from the likes of these efforts instead of Nintendo just selling us the damn thing is all the more awe-inspiring from me. I've been waiting and waiting for Majora's Mask to catch up. I got the recompilation and all, but no textures and other bells and whistles YET. Glad their Switch legislation hasn't killed this yet.