5 ms·

I think this varies wildly depending on where you live. Where I live (Melbourne), just the cost of suitable housing (a/ near a school, b/ close to most jobs, an

I think this varies wildly depending on where you live. Where I live (Melbourne), just the cost of suitable housing (a/ near a school, b/ close to most jobs, and c/ with space for 1+ children) is so high that it makes it difficult for a lot of couples to even consider children. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-04/why-australians-arent-having-children/103930594 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-04/why-australians-arent...

deepsun 2y ago
But it wasn't cheap "back then" either. I've spent 1 hour one way riding 2 buses to school (same as my parents to work). We had 62 m^2 (670 sq. ft.) of house for 2 parents + 3 children. It's just now we suddenly consider that too bad. Back then it was normal, just like everyone else.
- ido 2y ago
  I don’t know where you were born and how old you are, but that situation was defiantly not usual when i was a child (born 1983 in Israel). If anything I think I’d need a startup-liquidity-event level windfall to be able to afford housing as spacious as my parents bought in the 80s (housing costs increased way more than wages). It may have been when my parents were born though (mid 1940s, one in what is now Israel and the other in what was then the Soviet Union).
  - helge9210 2y ago
    But your parents didn't live in Israel 2019. Israel 1983 was more like today's Venezuela or Argentina. If you move today to a place comparable to Israel in 1983, you'll be able to afford even more space than your parents.
    - ido 2y ago
      Not sure why 2019 specifically, it's 2024. I think you also underestimate 1980s Israel - although there was a stock-market crash in 1983, it was not otherwise that poor- maybe more like today's Portugal or Greece than Venezuela. But anyway my parents were 1983 Israelis, they didn't come with future-Israel purchasing power - so they were able to afford their housing on the income of the time :) Other kids in my class had ± similar housing. Some were poor and had worse housing, but not 5 people in a 62m flat level of poverty- for that to be common you had to go back another couple decades (e.g. my mother's childhood experience in the 40s-50s was more like that, might have been common up to the 60s).
      - helge9210 2y ago
        > Not sure why 2019 specifically, it's 2024. Because in 2019 real estate was not only expensive by itself, but also all the future growth was added to a price. Today in 2024 you can buy very cheap in some places (north, for example). > there was a stock-market crash in 1983 Not just stock-market. By the time of the crash, Likud laid waste to the whole economy to undermine "the left".
bobthepanda 2y ago
what is space for a child? In previous decades it was acceptable for kids to share rooms via bunk beds.
- conk 2y ago
  Kids can share a room but that still means an extra room, which has a cost. Plus kids come with stuff like clothing, toys, school supplies, etc.
  - helge9210 2y ago
    I never had my own room. Up until age of 14 I slept on bunk bed sharing a room with my brother and my parents, so it doesn't always mean a separate room.
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      If you don't own a home you have to rent and they simply won't and can't legally rent you too small an apartment or one with insufficient bedrooms. In practice having 2 or 3 kids is going to mean going from studio/1 br to 2/3 br and double or triple housing costs.
      - dvdkon 2y ago
        That seems draconian. Is that a US federal/US state/other country law?
        helge9210 2y ago
        Same in Germany. There are minimum requirements on the living area for children.
        michaelmrose 2y ago
        State by state but the same most places. Even if the law would let you are you going to raise a family in your 350 sq studio?

deepsun 2y ago

But it wasn't cheap "back then" either. I've spent 1 hour one way riding 2 buses to school (same as my parents to work). We had 62 m^2 (670 sq. ft.) of house for 2 parents + 3 children. It's just now we suddenly consider that too bad. Back then it was normal, just like everyone else.

ido 2y ago
I don’t know where you were born and how old you are, but that situation was defiantly not usual when i was a child (born 1983 in Israel). If anything I think I’d need a startup-liquidity-event level windfall to be able to afford housing as spacious as my parents bought in the 80s (housing costs increased way more than wages). It may have been when my parents were born though (mid 1940s, one in what is now Israel and the other in what was then the Soviet Union).
- helge9210 2y ago
  But your parents didn't live in Israel 2019. Israel 1983 was more like today's Venezuela or Argentina. If you move today to a place comparable to Israel in 1983, you'll be able to afford even more space than your parents.
  - ido 2y ago
    Not sure why 2019 specifically, it's 2024. I think you also underestimate 1980s Israel - although there was a stock-market crash in 1983, it was not otherwise that poor- maybe more like today's Portugal or Greece than Venezuela. But anyway my parents were 1983 Israelis, they didn't come with future-Israel purchasing power - so they were able to afford their housing on the income of the time :) Other kids in my class had ± similar housing. Some were poor and had worse housing, but not 5 people in a 62m flat level of poverty- for that to be common you had to go back another couple decades (e.g. my mother's childhood experience in the 40s-50s was more like that, might have been common up to the 60s).
    - helge9210 2y ago
      > Not sure why 2019 specifically, it's 2024. Because in 2019 real estate was not only expensive by itself, but also all the future growth was added to a price. Today in 2024 you can buy very cheap in some places (north, for example). > there was a stock-market crash in 1983 Not just stock-market. By the time of the crash, Likud laid waste to the whole economy to undermine "the left".

bobthepanda 2y ago

what is space for a child? In previous decades it was acceptable for kids to share rooms via bunk beds.

conk 2y ago
Kids can share a room but that still means an extra room, which has a cost. Plus kids come with stuff like clothing, toys, school supplies, etc.
- helge9210 2y ago
  I never had my own room. Up until age of 14 I slept on bunk bed sharing a room with my brother and my parents, so it doesn't always mean a separate room.
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    If you don't own a home you have to rent and they simply won't and can't legally rent you too small an apartment or one with insufficient bedrooms. In practice having 2 or 3 kids is going to mean going from studio/1 br to 2/3 br and double or triple housing costs.
    - dvdkon 2y ago
      That seems draconian. Is that a US federal/US state/other country law?
      - helge9210 2y ago
        Same in Germany. There are minimum requirements on the living area for children.
      - michaelmrose 2y ago
        State by state but the same most places. Even if the law would let you are you going to raise a family in your 350 sq studio?