6 ms·

I don't want to sound like "that guy", but isn't this why there really aren't very many startups/innovations coming out of EU? That sense of entitlement and cu

by eekfuh 14y ago

I don't want to sound like "that guy", but isn't this why there really aren't very many startups/innovations coming out of EU? That sense of entitlement and cushy job seems to prevent people from taking risks. They'd rather just coast.

pimeys 14y ago
I prefer good life over innovations. But that's just me...
- derleth 14y ago
  It would be great if you could defend your position without using the logical fallacy of the false dilemma.
  - teamonkey 14y ago
    I think his comment has more insight than you give him credit for. I would say that culturally, Europeans just care a lot less about startups (and business and money making) than Americans. I think that's the biggest reason why they're less common in Europe. [Qualifier: I am a European now living in North America]
amit_m 14y ago
You cannot base a good argument on two data points. I suggest a 3rd point which I believe is a counterexample to your hypothesis: Israel has more startups per capita than any country in the world, but has socialized working laws. The legal minimum is 10 (I think), the exact amount for engineers varies from company to company, but it's usually at least 15-18 days of paid vacation per year with some of the bigger employers offering 20-30. We also get 3 months maternity leave, several months of unemployment, etc. Not as good as France or Holland, but much better than the US. I'd say the approach of the US with regards to anything social can work against risk taking. e.g. Healthcare. It's much easier to take risks when you have a social safety net.
- davidandgoliath 14y ago
  But as a nation you also receive massive amounts of foreign aid, thus have an even larger safety net: someone else is funding a good % of your bills. At some point that also has to be accounted for when taking into account a country's economic conditions.
  - amit_m 14y ago
    So you think only highly prosperous countries can afford vacation days? I believe that among western countries it's more about priorities and who is pulling the strings - if it's the regular folks who have power through their vote or the company owners, who use lobbying firms, campaign donations and control of the media to abort any legislation mandating vacation days, etc. Western europe has used its economic prosperity to get more vacation days over the years, maternity leave, free education and other social goods. While in the US it seems to work in the exact opposite direction. The extreme case is France, where they seem to be on constant vacation (>60 days!), get free university education, excellent free healthcare and all the good wine to the great dismay of the Chicago school economists that keep predicting its imminent collapse year after year. Israel's history is also a counterexample, as it was very poor in its early years (1948 - 1980s) and much more socialistic than it is today. Surely Israel can afford MORE vacation days and other social benefits today than it could 40 years ago. But the trend is exactly the opposite. Unfortunately we have a US educated prime minister. --- About the magnitude of US foreign aid to Israel and its role in the economy, here are some numbers: Total US foreign aid to Israel: about 3$ billion / year. [1] Total israeli budget: about 100$ billion / year. [2] Even though this is serious money, canceling the US foreign aid would not make a huge dent in Israel's budget. e.g. 3$ billion can be taxed by increasing the VAT from 16% to 18.8%. [3] In addition to that, as someone who watched how this foreign aid budget is spent in the military, one dollar of foreign aid is worth MUCH LESS than one real dollar. Since goods must be bought from a specific purchasing catalogue, and this catalogue is both limited and has highly inflated prices. e.g. more than 2500$ for a standard IBM desktop PC. I think this follows partly from the requirement that at least 50% of the manufactured goods must be made in the US. So many products are made in China, then shipped to the US for repackaging (where their price is doubled) and then shipped back to Israel. Note also that a large part of US foreign aid goes to purchasing very expensive fighter jets (F-15, F-16) and spare parts. A hugely important goal of the Israeli air force is to have more F-16 planes than the egyptians have. But the Egyptians also get their aircraft from US foreign aid. My interpretation of this state of affairs is that main reason congress is backing both sides of this arms race is in order to take taxpayer money and give it to the military-industrial complex. Sources: [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations#United_States_aid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_re... [2] (sorry, hebrew only) http://budget.msh.gov.il/#00,2012,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0 http://budget.msh.gov.il/#00,2012,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0 [3] http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4234752,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4234752,00.html
ckrailo 14y ago
Perhaps. Tell me what you think of this article: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...
angersock 14y ago
As far as startups go, I'd imagine that it's more a function of available capital--and even then I've heard good things about startups out of places like Berlin or London. As far as innovations go, you should go look at the demoscene and a lot of the goofy but useful JS libraries to come out (say, three.js which I believe is Spanish in origin). So, again, I'm not sure where you get that from. That sense of entitlement and cushy job seems to prevent people from taking risks. They'd rather just coast. As opposed to all the hardworking American office drones that only take ~2 weeks a year? Also, what's this business about a "cushy job"? Wouldn't you want workers to be happier and thus more productive? Why do you seem to be implying that there is a moral highground to more strenuous and miserable work?
- OstiaAntica 14y ago
  High marginal tax rates in Europe take away the incentive to create a startup, and the governments there confiscate much more of the winnings from successful companies. That, in turn, ensures that there is little venture capital to invest in the next generation of startups.
  - VBprogrammer 14y ago
    I strongly disagree. I suspect you are looking at this from the 'American Dream' capitalist point of view. Our tax rates might be higher, but this is more than balanced out by our strong social security and healthcare systems which allow us to take risks a silicon valley startup couldn't dream of. I can only speak for the UK (and lumping all of Europe together is pretty foolish given that it has a range of countries from borderline 3rd world to international superpowers) but in London the tech scene is very much alive and well. I myself work for a middle aged startup (going through some horrible growing pains just now), I love to get involved in the London tech scene and I've talked with plenty of people doing well from startups.
    - davidandgoliath 14y ago
      Strong social security like in Greece? At some point the system isn't going to assist you much when it doesn't exist. Nor will capitalism either, as we'll all be flying kites made of dollar bills inevitably :)
rmc 14y ago
I'm an EU citizen and have worked (and am working) in several EU based startups. I know I can take a job in one or any of them and not lose my holidays and health care. Big companies don't really offer perks like this here (lots of holidays or health care), so why would I want to work in a cubicle? There's an employee shortage, and mandatory holidays means that a start up is as hard work as a megacorp.
kalleboo 14y ago
On the other hand if you join a startup in the EU vs. the US, you're nor forfeiting a health plan, and even if the startup goes bust you have the social welfare system to ensure it doesn't put you on the streets. So I imagine it hinders people from creating startups, but at the same time it helps hire people into them.
nl 14y ago
Well there is Spotify. And MySQL. Skype. One can keep going... The difference between the US & Europe appears to be Silicon Valley, not a sense of entitlement and cushy job.
cjy 14y ago
Also, it might explain why youth unemployment is so high in Europe.
beedogs 14y ago
I am so sick of hearing Americans tell the rest of the planet that "not wanting to work yourself to death" equals a "sense of entitlement". Can we please take this tired, idiotic old meme out back and put a few rounds in it?
- abalashov 14y ago
  I'll get the silencer, lest Middle America hear. :-)
kahawe 14y ago
Hello from Europe! I think you are vastly under-estimating the startup scene over here... but granted, being quite far from the Valley surely doesn't benefit them; the whole Internet and IT are very much focused on the Valley and NewYork due to historic reasons, if you ask me.

by eekfuh 14y ago

pimeys 14y ago

I prefer good life over innovations. But that's just me...

derleth 14y ago
It would be great if you could defend your position without using the logical fallacy of the false dilemma.
- teamonkey 14y ago
  I think his comment has more insight than you give him credit for. I would say that culturally, Europeans just care a lot less about startups (and business and money making) than Americans. I think that's the biggest reason why they're less common in Europe. [Qualifier: I am a European now living in North America]

amit_m 14y ago

You cannot base a good argument on two data points. I suggest a 3rd point which I believe is a counterexample to your hypothesis: Israel has more startups per capita than any country in the world, but has socialized working laws. The legal minimum is 10 (I think), the exact amount for engineers varies from company to company, but it's usually at least 15-18 days of paid vacation per year with some of the bigger employers offering 20-30. We also get 3 months maternity leave, several months of unemployment, etc. Not as good as France or Holland, but much better than the US. I'd say the approach of the US with regards to anything social can work against risk taking. e.g. Healthcare. It's much easier to take risks when you have a social safety net.

davidandgoliath 14y ago
But as a nation you also receive massive amounts of foreign aid, thus have an even larger safety net: someone else is funding a good % of your bills. At some point that also has to be accounted for when taking into account a country's economic conditions.
- amit_m 14y ago
  So you think only highly prosperous countries can afford vacation days? I believe that among western countries it's more about priorities and who is pulling the strings - if it's the regular folks who have power through their vote or the company owners, who use lobbying firms, campaign donations and control of the media to abort any legislation mandating vacation days, etc. Western europe has used its economic prosperity to get more vacation days over the years, maternity leave, free education and other social goods. While in the US it seems to work in the exact opposite direction. The extreme case is France, where they seem to be on constant vacation (>60 days!), get free university education, excellent free healthcare and all the good wine to the great dismay of the Chicago school economists that keep predicting its imminent collapse year after year. Israel's history is also a counterexample, as it was very poor in its early years (1948 - 1980s) and much more socialistic than it is today. Surely Israel can afford MORE vacation days and other social benefits today than it could 40 years ago. But the trend is exactly the opposite. Unfortunately we have a US educated prime minister. --- About the magnitude of US foreign aid to Israel and its role in the economy, here are some numbers: Total US foreign aid to Israel: about 3$ billion / year. [1] Total israeli budget: about 100$ billion / year. [2] Even though this is serious money, canceling the US foreign aid would not make a huge dent in Israel's budget. e.g. 3$ billion can be taxed by increasing the VAT from 16% to 18.8%. [3] In addition to that, as someone who watched how this foreign aid budget is spent in the military, one dollar of foreign aid is worth MUCH LESS than one real dollar. Since goods must be bought from a specific purchasing catalogue, and this catalogue is both limited and has highly inflated prices. e.g. more than 2500$ for a standard IBM desktop PC. I think this follows partly from the requirement that at least 50% of the manufactured goods must be made in the US. So many products are made in China, then shipped to the US for repackaging (where their price is doubled) and then shipped back to Israel. Note also that a large part of US foreign aid goes to purchasing very expensive fighter jets (F-15, F-16) and spare parts. A hugely important goal of the Israeli air force is to have more F-16 planes than the egyptians have. But the Egyptians also get their aircraft from US foreign aid. My interpretation of this state of affairs is that main reason congress is backing both sides of this arms race is in order to take taxpayer money and give it to the military-industrial complex. Sources: [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations#United_States_aid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_re... [2] (sorry, hebrew only) http://budget.msh.gov.il/#00,2012,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0 http://budget.msh.gov.il/#00,2012,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0 [3] http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4234752,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4234752,00.html

ckrailo 14y ago

Perhaps. Tell me what you think of this article: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...

angersock 14y ago

As far as startups go, I'd imagine that it's more a function of available capital--and even then I've heard good things about startups out of places like Berlin or London. As far as innovations go, you should go look at the demoscene and a lot of the goofy but useful JS libraries to come out (say, three.js which I believe is Spanish in origin). So, again, I'm not sure where you get that from. That sense of entitlement and cushy job seems to prevent people from taking risks. They'd rather just coast. As opposed to all the hardworking American office drones that only take ~2 weeks a year? Also, what's this business about a "cushy job"? Wouldn't you want workers to be happier and thus more productive? Why do you seem to be implying that there is a moral highground to more strenuous and miserable work?

OstiaAntica 14y ago
High marginal tax rates in Europe take away the incentive to create a startup, and the governments there confiscate much more of the winnings from successful companies. That, in turn, ensures that there is little venture capital to invest in the next generation of startups.
- VBprogrammer 14y ago
  I strongly disagree. I suspect you are looking at this from the 'American Dream' capitalist point of view. Our tax rates might be higher, but this is more than balanced out by our strong social security and healthcare systems which allow us to take risks a silicon valley startup couldn't dream of. I can only speak for the UK (and lumping all of Europe together is pretty foolish given that it has a range of countries from borderline 3rd world to international superpowers) but in London the tech scene is very much alive and well. I myself work for a middle aged startup (going through some horrible growing pains just now), I love to get involved in the London tech scene and I've talked with plenty of people doing well from startups.
  - davidandgoliath 14y ago
    Strong social security like in Greece? At some point the system isn't going to assist you much when it doesn't exist. Nor will capitalism either, as we'll all be flying kites made of dollar bills inevitably :)

rmc 14y ago

I'm an EU citizen and have worked (and am working) in several EU based startups. I know I can take a job in one or any of them and not lose my holidays and health care. Big companies don't really offer perks like this here (lots of holidays or health care), so why would I want to work in a cubicle? There's an employee shortage, and mandatory holidays means that a start up is as hard work as a megacorp.

kalleboo 14y ago

On the other hand if you join a startup in the EU vs. the US, you're nor forfeiting a health plan, and even if the startup goes bust you have the social welfare system to ensure it doesn't put you on the streets. So I imagine it hinders people from creating startups, but at the same time it helps hire people into them.

nl 14y ago

Well there is Spotify. And MySQL. Skype. One can keep going... The difference between the US & Europe appears to be Silicon Valley, not a sense of entitlement and cushy job.

cjy 14y ago

Also, it might explain why youth unemployment is so high in Europe.

beedogs 14y ago

I am so sick of hearing Americans tell the rest of the planet that "not wanting to work yourself to death" equals a "sense of entitlement". Can we please take this tired, idiotic old meme out back and put a few rounds in it?

abalashov 14y ago
I'll get the silencer, lest Middle America hear. :-)

kahawe 14y ago

Hello from Europe! I think you are vastly under-estimating the startup scene over here... but granted, being quite far from the Valley surely doesn't benefit them; the whole Internet and IT are very much focused on the Valley and NewYork due to historic reasons, if you ask me.