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@WPEngine - fork Wordpress, rebrand yourself and the code. Setup a plugin / update hub like Wordpress.org and provide a pathway for your customers and devs to m

@WPEngine - fork Wordpress, rebrand yourself and the code. Setup a plugin / update hub like Wordpress.org and provide a pathway for your customers and devs to migrate. I recognize this is non-trivial. Ending an abusive relationship usually is.

spiderfarmer 2y ago
They profit off Wordpress' brand for free. Maintaining a fork and building a new brand will be expensive. As much as I despise Matt's antics, there's not much to gain for WPEngine by forking it. The best scenario for all parties is to burry the hatch and for Matt to step down.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > They profit off Wordpress' brand for free. What the hell are you on about? Wordpress is GPL. Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? There is a very simple thing you can do if you don’t want people to do this: use a different license. You cannot eat your cake and keep having it. > Maintaining a fork and building a new brand will be expensive. Publishing free software is a decision. You cannot come years later to say “no, actually you need to pay”, or “yeah, it’s free but not like that”. The whole “WPE does not contribute” point is completely disingenuous and I cannot believe that people are still uttering it in good faith. > The best scenario for all parties is to burry the hatch and for Matt to step down. The best scenario is Wordpress going up in flames, Matt being utterly ridiculed for his dishonest behaviour and the whole thing serving as a cautionary tale.
  - pixxel 2y ago
    > Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand Poor analogy. All the distros I’ve ever used are totally free.
    - bigiain 2y ago
      OK, replace "WPEngine" with AWS/GCE/Azure/every-other-server-host. Thery all sell customer's services that rely on linux kernel (and gnu utilities). I don't see Torvalds or Stallman getting high and trying to extort them...
    - aitchnyu 2y ago
      The Linux copyright holders did pursue companies using Linux in the name, and distros were one exception.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      But not all of them are (I mean, they all publish the sources of the GPL components, but then WPE does as well). The situation is exactly the same: expecting other people to go beyond the terms of the license is lunacy.
  - silverliver 2y ago
    > What the hell are you on about? Wordpress is GPL. Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? > There is a very simple thing you can do if you don’t want people to do this: use a different license. You cannot eat your cake and keep having it. Not taking sides here, but the GPL did not include a trademark grant the last time I checked. In fact, treating copyright and trademark rights separately is a fairly well-established strategy in the open source world (e.g.Firefox and Ubuntu).
    - kergonath 2y ago
      You are entirely right. But trademark has nothing to do with the “not contributing to the community” thing, whatever that means. Going after Wordpress-Engine with a trademark angle makes sense. Although: 1- I don’t think that would hold any water against “WPE” 2- trademark needs to be defended (in the US at least) and you cannot let things slide for 5 years and then claim infringement. In any case, that’s not what happened. The trademark aspect was clearly an afterthought and is not the central point of the dispute.
    - atonse 2y ago
      He’s using trademarks because that’s all he can do. But this is about the money and jealousy about how WP Engine is making a ton of money Without adding more developers to contribute.
    - immibis 2y ago
      WPEngine hasn't actually violated any trademarks. Matt's using trademark law because it's the least stupid lawsuit he could think of, not because he has a case
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    > Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? Those aren't forks. Full forking the Linux kernel and rebranding it would be hard for the same reasons as forking and rebranding Wordpress. > Publishing free software is a decision. You cannot come years later to say “no, actually you need to pay”, or “yeah, it’s free but not like that”. That's not my point. My point is: if they want to fork it, it will be expensive. > The best scenario is Wordpress going up in flames, Matt being utterly ridiculed for his dishonest behaviour and the whole thing serving as a cautionary tale. Why would that be better?
    - e40 2y ago
      This is precisely what Red Hat did, right?
      - spiderfarmer 2y ago
        Red Hat still includes the Linux kernel. Android would be a better example of an actual fork.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      The context is getting a bit murky, so let’s start with this: > That's not my point. My point is: if they want to fork it, it will be expensive. That was your second point, and I don’t disagree with it. Now, for the rest of your post. > Those aren't forks. I am not sure what point you are making here. Forking has nothing to do with either ripping off anyone or trademarks. The possibility to fork software is a fundamental principle of free software. As in, you cannot have free software that cannot be forked. If you don’t want people to fork it, don’t make it free. Wordpress itself is a rebranded fork of b2, and nobody has any issue with that. > Full forking the Linux kernel and rebranding it would be hard for the same reasons as forking and rebranding Wordpress. If you fork a project you cannot use someone else’s IP, so you have to rebrand if the project name is a trademark. AFAIK, the Android kernels are forks and don’t use the Linux trademark, for example. Rebranding does not make forking any easier or harder, it’s completely orthogonal. You mean that it would be difficult because they would need to pay developers to maintain the fork, right? This is true, but it has nothing to do with ripping off anyone. Matt is not embarrassing himself because forking would be complicated. His message is clear, and you wrote it yourself: “they profit off Wordpress' brand for free”. Which is dishonest and misleading.
  - Brian_K_White 2y ago
    Wordpress can't actually use another license because... Wordpress is itself a fork of gpl software. It just gets better and better the more you learn about this guy.
- y-curious 2y ago
  Just so you know, the phrase is "bury the hatchet" which comes from the Native American practice of burying weapons in times of peace.
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    Thanks. I should have googled it before posting, I'm not a native speaker.
- CodeWriter23 2y ago
  He’s not going to step down. And if his beef (as stated) is companies making money with WordPress without contributing back, where’s the line? The top page builders like Divi and Elementor all do the same with their cloud offerings. Does he sue them next, simply for using the word “WordPress” to indicate compatibility in their marketing materials? Who wants to invest time and money simply to have Matt steal your work on a whim. Don’t make the mistake of assuming Matt’s scope is limited to WPEngine; the kind of personality that acts in this way will do the same to anyone.

spiderfarmer 2y ago

They profit off Wordpress' brand for free. Maintaining a fork and building a new brand will be expensive. As much as I despise Matt's antics, there's not much to gain for WPEngine by forking it. The best scenario for all parties is to burry the hatch and for Matt to step down.

kergonath 2y ago
> They profit off Wordpress' brand for free. What the hell are you on about? Wordpress is GPL. Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? There is a very simple thing you can do if you don’t want people to do this: use a different license. You cannot eat your cake and keep having it. > Maintaining a fork and building a new brand will be expensive. Publishing free software is a decision. You cannot come years later to say “no, actually you need to pay”, or “yeah, it’s free but not like that”. The whole “WPE does not contribute” point is completely disingenuous and I cannot believe that people are still uttering it in good faith. > The best scenario for all parties is to burry the hatch and for Matt to step down. The best scenario is Wordpress going up in flames, Matt being utterly ridiculed for his dishonest behaviour and the whole thing serving as a cautionary tale.
- pixxel 2y ago
  > Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand Poor analogy. All the distros I’ve ever used are totally free.
  - bigiain 2y ago
    OK, replace "WPEngine" with AWS/GCE/Azure/every-other-server-host. Thery all sell customer's services that rely on linux kernel (and gnu utilities). I don't see Torvalds or Stallman getting high and trying to extort them...
  - aitchnyu 2y ago
    The Linux copyright holders did pursue companies using Linux in the name, and distros were one exception.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    But not all of them are (I mean, they all publish the sources of the GPL components, but then WPE does as well). The situation is exactly the same: expecting other people to go beyond the terms of the license is lunacy.
- silverliver 2y ago
  > What the hell are you on about? Wordpress is GPL. Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? > There is a very simple thing you can do if you don’t want people to do this: use a different license. You cannot eat your cake and keep having it. Not taking sides here, but the GPL did not include a trademark grant the last time I checked. In fact, treating copyright and trademark rights separately is a fairly well-established strategy in the open source world (e.g.Firefox and Ubuntu).
  - kergonath 2y ago
    You are entirely right. But trademark has nothing to do with the “not contributing to the community” thing, whatever that means. Going after Wordpress-Engine with a trademark angle makes sense. Although: 1- I don’t think that would hold any water against “WPE” 2- trademark needs to be defended (in the US at least) and you cannot let things slide for 5 years and then claim infringement. In any case, that’s not what happened. The trademark aspect was clearly an afterthought and is not the central point of the dispute.
  - atonse 2y ago
    He’s using trademarks because that’s all he can do. But this is about the money and jealousy about how WP Engine is making a ton of money Without adding more developers to contribute.
  - immibis 2y ago
    WPEngine hasn't actually violated any trademarks. Matt's using trademark law because it's the least stupid lawsuit he could think of, not because he has a case
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  > Are all Linux distro profiting off Linus’ brand? Those aren't forks. Full forking the Linux kernel and rebranding it would be hard for the same reasons as forking and rebranding Wordpress. > Publishing free software is a decision. You cannot come years later to say “no, actually you need to pay”, or “yeah, it’s free but not like that”. That's not my point. My point is: if they want to fork it, it will be expensive. > The best scenario is Wordpress going up in flames, Matt being utterly ridiculed for his dishonest behaviour and the whole thing serving as a cautionary tale. Why would that be better?
  - e40 2y ago
    This is precisely what Red Hat did, right?
    - spiderfarmer 2y ago
      Red Hat still includes the Linux kernel. Android would be a better example of an actual fork.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    The context is getting a bit murky, so let’s start with this: > That's not my point. My point is: if they want to fork it, it will be expensive. That was your second point, and I don’t disagree with it. Now, for the rest of your post. > Those aren't forks. I am not sure what point you are making here. Forking has nothing to do with either ripping off anyone or trademarks. The possibility to fork software is a fundamental principle of free software. As in, you cannot have free software that cannot be forked. If you don’t want people to fork it, don’t make it free. Wordpress itself is a rebranded fork of b2, and nobody has any issue with that. > Full forking the Linux kernel and rebranding it would be hard for the same reasons as forking and rebranding Wordpress. If you fork a project you cannot use someone else’s IP, so you have to rebrand if the project name is a trademark. AFAIK, the Android kernels are forks and don’t use the Linux trademark, for example. Rebranding does not make forking any easier or harder, it’s completely orthogonal. You mean that it would be difficult because they would need to pay developers to maintain the fork, right? This is true, but it has nothing to do with ripping off anyone. Matt is not embarrassing himself because forking would be complicated. His message is clear, and you wrote it yourself: “they profit off Wordpress' brand for free”. Which is dishonest and misleading.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Wordpress can't actually use another license because... Wordpress is itself a fork of gpl software. It just gets better and better the more you learn about this guy.
y-curious 2y ago
Just so you know, the phrase is "bury the hatchet" which comes from the Native American practice of burying weapons in times of peace.
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  Thanks. I should have googled it before posting, I'm not a native speaker.
CodeWriter23 2y ago
He’s not going to step down. And if his beef (as stated) is companies making money with WordPress without contributing back, where’s the line? The top page builders like Divi and Elementor all do the same with their cloud offerings. Does he sue them next, simply for using the word “WordPress” to indicate compatibility in their marketing materials? Who wants to invest time and money simply to have Matt steal your work on a whim. Don’t make the mistake of assuming Matt’s scope is limited to WPEngine; the kind of personality that acts in this way will do the same to anyone.