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we gotta stop chasing the whole "line go up" ideology. I know that's all capitalism is and how it exists, but we need to be okay with just simply doing well for

we gotta stop chasing the whole "line go up" ideology. I know that's all capitalism is and how it exists, but we need to be okay with just simply doing well for the sake of doing well. You don't need to instantly go berzerk with investors and stocks and shit. unfettered growth will never truly pay off.

WalterBright 2y ago
> unfettered growth will never truly pay off It did for the US, Japan, Hong Kong, Germany, China, everywhere that free markets were tried.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  China is the worst example you can make for that point. They're sitting atop of a giant pile of debt, particularly in housing, and millions of people have lost their life savings as a result. China's economy is a house of cards just waiting to come crash down, and that's without the threat of the CCP wanting to take over Taiwan.
  - CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
    None of the problems China is facing is anywhere close to undoing 50 years of economic growth.
- Woeps 2y ago
  Thank you for pointing this out! It did for them on the back of others. The line has to go up mentality just puts resources from place A to place B. Now lets get past that stage and make sure that it pays off for everybody.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    On the backs of who? How free markets work is the creators of wealth get to keep it. I.e. it's on their own backs.
    - Woeps 2y ago
      But is the market actually free if you never get the chance to play? Or if a majority of players get nerfed by default because of "reasons"?
- _1tem 2y ago
  That's circular reasoning. You're defining "success" as "line go up" and then saying we made the "line go up" therefore we were successful. If you define success as GDP per capita, then sure, the countries with the highest GDP per capita won. However, even by other flawed metrics, such as Real GDP with purchasing power parity taken into account, India and Russia are also top of the list[1]. Even this metric is flawed, though, because humans are complicated and GDP != happiness or success. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/real-gdp-purchasing-power-parity/country-comparison/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/real-gdp-purcha...
  - gruez 2y ago
    >However, even by other flawed metrics, such as Real GDP with purchasing power parity taken into account, India and Russia are also top of the list[1] Country wide GDP figures (PPP adjusted or otherwise) are worthless for comparing quality of life. You need to compare per capita figures.
    - _1tem 2y ago
      Any single number is worthless for comparing quality of life, per capita or not. How do you use a number to take into account the fact that some people don't have access to healthcare in the US or "freedom" in Russia?
      - gruez 2y ago
        My point isn't that GDP per capita is the end-all-be-all of quality of life metrics. It's that pointing out that Russia and India are at the top of the GDP list, and therefore GDP per capita (your previous comment seems to conflate the two) is a flawed metric, is such a poor argument that you're not giving the pro-GDP side a fair shake and possibly misrepresenting their argument. No "line goes up" or "GDP = quality of life" proponent thinks India has high quality of life because their country level GDP tops the list.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > line go up Pick any measure you like. Free markets are the most prosperous. > India and Russia Do you really think their standard of living is higher than the US? Why is Seattle full of Russian and Indian immigrants? Why do you think zillions of immigrants are coming to the US? Because the US is a hellhole? > GDP != happiness or success. If you're happier being poor, just give away all your stuff to your favorite charity. Nobody is forcing you to be prosperous.

WalterBright 2y ago

> unfettered growth will never truly pay off It did for the US, Japan, Hong Kong, Germany, China, everywhere that free markets were tried.

mschuster91 2y ago
China is the worst example you can make for that point. They're sitting atop of a giant pile of debt, particularly in housing, and millions of people have lost their life savings as a result. China's economy is a house of cards just waiting to come crash down, and that's without the threat of the CCP wanting to take over Taiwan.
- CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
  None of the problems China is facing is anywhere close to undoing 50 years of economic growth.
Woeps 2y ago
Thank you for pointing this out! It did for them on the back of others. The line has to go up mentality just puts resources from place A to place B. Now lets get past that stage and make sure that it pays off for everybody.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  On the backs of who? How free markets work is the creators of wealth get to keep it. I.e. it's on their own backs.
  - Woeps 2y ago
    But is the market actually free if you never get the chance to play? Or if a majority of players get nerfed by default because of "reasons"?
_1tem 2y ago
That's circular reasoning. You're defining "success" as "line go up" and then saying we made the "line go up" therefore we were successful. If you define success as GDP per capita, then sure, the countries with the highest GDP per capita won. However, even by other flawed metrics, such as Real GDP with purchasing power parity taken into account, India and Russia are also top of the list[1]. Even this metric is flawed, though, because humans are complicated and GDP != happiness or success. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/real-gdp-purchasing-power-parity/country-comparison/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/real-gdp-purcha...
- gruez 2y ago
  >However, even by other flawed metrics, such as Real GDP with purchasing power parity taken into account, India and Russia are also top of the list[1] Country wide GDP figures (PPP adjusted or otherwise) are worthless for comparing quality of life. You need to compare per capita figures.
  - _1tem 2y ago
    Any single number is worthless for comparing quality of life, per capita or not. How do you use a number to take into account the fact that some people don't have access to healthcare in the US or "freedom" in Russia?
    - gruez 2y ago
      My point isn't that GDP per capita is the end-all-be-all of quality of life metrics. It's that pointing out that Russia and India are at the top of the GDP list, and therefore GDP per capita (your previous comment seems to conflate the two) is a flawed metric, is such a poor argument that you're not giving the pro-GDP side a fair shake and possibly misrepresenting their argument. No "line goes up" or "GDP = quality of life" proponent thinks India has high quality of life because their country level GDP tops the list.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > line go up Pick any measure you like. Free markets are the most prosperous. > India and Russia Do you really think their standard of living is higher than the US? Why is Seattle full of Russian and Indian immigrants? Why do you think zillions of immigrants are coming to the US? Because the US is a hellhole? > GDP != happiness or success. If you're happier being poor, just give away all your stuff to your favorite charity. Nobody is forcing you to be prosperous.