8 ms·

I hope they include Amazon's practice of taking popular products on their storefront, making generic "Amazon Basics" versions, and selling them to undercut the

I hope they include Amazon's practice of taking popular products on their storefront, making generic "Amazon Basics" versions, and selling them to undercut the popular options. Simultaneously owning a marketplace, approving who can and can't sell products on it, and then putting your own products on it to undercut other sellers is so scummy and muck rake-y. I hope they also include Amazon allowing thousands of Chinese retailers to stock Amazon's warehouses with counterfeit, faulty products, and potentially dangerous out-of-spec parts - with no way to meaningfully report or bring the offending product to Amazon's attention.

macinjosh 2y ago
Not every one can afford the name brand. - Sincerely a kid raised on everything store brand.
- saltymug76 2y ago
  I dont think anyone's arguing against generic alternatives of name brand items. The issue here is Amazon using up-and-coming and popular products as fodder for them to generic-ize and push to the top of results, essentially knee capping the original seller.
  - megaman821 2y ago
    Those original sellers mainly just look like drop-shippers to me. So Amazon just going straight to the source and selling at lower margin is better for me as a buyer.
  - wvenable 2y ago
    Is there a business with a "house brand" that doesn't do this?
  - tomschlick 2y ago
    Does Walmart/CostCo/BestBuy/Kroger/etc not do this exact thing?
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I think the algorithms make the difference here. You can't really make a cereal box stand out on a physical shelf in any unique way (or you can, but it'll be a cost expense. Ruining the point of undercutting). IME with online storefronts for traditional brick and mortar their own brands never seem to come on top. Meanwhle I will almost always get an AmazonBasics if it exists as a first result.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        > Meanwhle I will almost always get an AmazonBasics if it exists as a first result. 99.9% of buyers prefer this over having to wade through innumerate random brands and try to discern quality.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Consumers like a lot of short term factors that turn against them in the long term. That seems to be the theme of the 21st century. I'd rather these perverse incentives not exist and simply have a more educated consumer base learn to search "Amazon basics X" instead of maximizing conviniece to enable monopolies. We've clearly been shown that we can't handle the latter
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        I have no interest in becoming more educated about which seller from which factory run has what kind of quality standards. That’s why I use Costco and Target and Walmart and Amazon and Uniqlo and other brands to go out there and do that work. All I want to know is that I’ll be able to return something if it isn’t satisfactory.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        And that's how you later get taken advantage of and how Amazon starts to be as bad as Comcast's customer service. But you can't leave because competition is gone. You don't have to care per se, that's what the government is for. But taking the time and energy to argue against your long term best interests is disappointing.
  - lovethevoid 2y ago
    All retailers do that. It's called private labels. None of the products are made by the retailer either. As unfortunate to those who might genuinely believe Trader Joes products are unique to them, or that Great Value was Walmart using its massive distribution systems to quickly scale core products like Milk out. It's all private labelling.
    - tpxl 2y ago
      Amazon is not a traditional retails, it's a marketplace. Walmart buys stock, puts it on sale, gets data and makes decisions upon that. Amazon just skips the expensive first 2 steps by taking data from other retailers on their platform.
  - tbrownaw 2y ago
    Yes, how dare they use their scale to make more cost-effective versions of popular things.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      how dare they use their algorithms to make sure all their cost effective versions will show up first. That's probably the more pressing issue.
    - consteval 2y ago
      It doesn't really count when they: 1. Have access to immense amounts of data about these products that the manufacturers don't. Because they own the marketplace. 2. Can freely advertise, push, or even force their own products as much as possible. Because they own the marketplace.
the_gorilla 2y ago
I don't think it's part of an antitrust case, but I am tired of seeing every item being sold from 200 chinese companies with randomly generated names and fake/bought reviews. Walmart has started to do something similar with their online store. I'll use their words. > It's easy to sell online with Walmart.com. Partner with the largest multi-channel retailer and put your products in front of millions of Walmart shoppers. Americans are used to American storefronts going through American regulations, but now you're essentially being dropshipped hazardous unregulated products. I generally try to buy from companies directly but this hasn't stopped my family from buying chinesium children toys for me that go straight into the trash.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  > you're essentially being dropshipped hazardous unregulated products. How did we end up here? Like why the hell can I buy things on Amazon that can't legally be sold on shelves in the US? Why aren't retailers suing?
  - esskay 2y ago
    > Why aren't retailers suing? Because Amazons wiped a lot of them out, and the ones that remain are either doing the same thing, or stand zero chance of comign out of it anything less than bankrupt. Amazon for all its convenience has decimated likely close to if not more than a million businesses at this point across the world.
  - lovethevoid 2y ago
    The CPSC has sued and won https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2024/CPSC-Finds-Amazon-Responsible-Under-Federal-Safety-Law-for-Hazardous-Products-Sold-by-Third-Party-Sellers-on-Amazon-com https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2024/CPSC-Finds-... Amazon used the excuse it wasn't acting as a distributor and thus shouldn't be held responsible for protecting the public from these products
- Loughla 2y ago
  >I generally try to buy from companies directly This is the secret today. Find the product you want, buy straight from that company. Anymore the storefronts are all uniform and shipping (which used to be Amazon's advantage) is the same. The days of massive online retailers dominating is over at my house. I just wish more people would figure that out.
psunavy03 2y ago
You mean you don't like having the choice between ZOSLRD-branded stuff and TUMACO-branded stuff, both of which have descriptions that look like someone put Mandarin Chinese through an LLM, because that's probably what they did?
- shitlord 2y ago
  Why is it so common for Chinese sellers on Amazon to have uppercase company names?
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    Selling on Amazon requires a registered trademark. If you're a random factory in Shenzhen you don't care about branding, you just want to be able to sell your stuff on Amazon, so you just put together random letters in the hope that your registration won't conflict with anything else. You don't want to have to deal with back-and-forth with USPTO, you don't care about having a meaningful, memorable, or interesting name, you just want an Amazon listing. Coincidentally the majority of USPTO trademark submissions are literally just random strings of letters now for this reason.
    - shitlord 2y ago
      That explains the random names, but what's with the upper case lettering?
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        if I had to take a blind guess: Chinese doesn't have a concept of casesensitivity. It's a logographic language so casesensitivity is almost irrelevant.
    - unmole 2y ago
      > Selling on Amazon requires a registered trademark This is not true. A trademark is only required for Amazon's brand registry which gives brand owners control over who is allowed to sell their branded products.
richwater 2y ago
> I hope they include Amazon's practice of taking popular products on their storefront, making generic "Amazon Basics" versions, and selling them to undercut the popular options. I guess you hate every grocery store ever then
- adventured 2y ago
  And competition. One of the ways companies like Walmart hold their popular brand name companies in check on pricing power is through their store brands. Why should I feel bad about Kraft being under permanent pressure by Walmart's Great Value brand? More competition is needed, not less. Along with more transparency. Banning Amazon from competing would be a mistake. They need a more level playing field, not fewer players.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Selling carrots is much different than developing a store brand product based on the algorithms only you have access to. Amazon is basically outsourcing R&D and market research to startups then taking the market away once they have a success.
ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
Idk how you fix that without effecting store brands at grocery stores. And I think store brands are pretty mostly a win for the consumer (this is important for any monopoly case).
- zizee 2y ago
  Do I understand that you like/appreciate grocery store brands, but dislike Amazon's store brand? If so, what is the distinction you see between the two?
  - ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
    >Do I understand that No I didn't say that.
Mistletoe 2y ago
My Amazon Basics RCA cables and many other items are the best versions of those items I own. The quality is very very good. I actually like that feature of Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Basics-Speaker-Subwoofer-Gold-Plated/dp/B01D5H8P0G https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Basics-Speaker-Subwoofer-Gold-...
tzs 2y ago
So let's say they aren't allowed to both own a marketplace and sell their own generic product in that marketplace, and so they have to spin Amazon Basics (AB) off into a separate company that is not treated any differently than any other seller on Amazon the marketplace (AM). AB can still look at AM listings in a category and note what is popular (just like anyone can do since that is part of the details AM generally includes in listings), and make a generic version (just like anyone can do), and then sell that on AM. AB products are usually pretty good and usually quite reasonably priced and so even if treated exactly the same as everything else in their category are still likely to end up being included in the products that get algorithmically recommended as alternatives. It's not clear to me how this would improve competition. As far as your point on Chinese retailers goes, you are arguing that Amazon should allow fewer sellers and those sellers should be more regulated. That may be a good thing but I'm having some difficulty seeing how it is an antitrust thing.

macinjosh 2y ago

Not every one can afford the name brand. - Sincerely a kid raised on everything store brand.

saltymug76 2y ago
I dont think anyone's arguing against generic alternatives of name brand items. The issue here is Amazon using up-and-coming and popular products as fodder for them to generic-ize and push to the top of results, essentially knee capping the original seller.
- megaman821 2y ago
  Those original sellers mainly just look like drop-shippers to me. So Amazon just going straight to the source and selling at lower margin is better for me as a buyer.
- wvenable 2y ago
  Is there a business with a "house brand" that doesn't do this?
- tomschlick 2y ago
  Does Walmart/CostCo/BestBuy/Kroger/etc not do this exact thing?
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I think the algorithms make the difference here. You can't really make a cereal box stand out on a physical shelf in any unique way (or you can, but it'll be a cost expense. Ruining the point of undercutting). IME with online storefronts for traditional brick and mortar their own brands never seem to come on top. Meanwhle I will almost always get an AmazonBasics if it exists as a first result.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      > Meanwhle I will almost always get an AmazonBasics if it exists as a first result. 99.9% of buyers prefer this over having to wade through innumerate random brands and try to discern quality.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Consumers like a lot of short term factors that turn against them in the long term. That seems to be the theme of the 21st century. I'd rather these perverse incentives not exist and simply have a more educated consumer base learn to search "Amazon basics X" instead of maximizing conviniece to enable monopolies. We've clearly been shown that we can't handle the latter
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        I have no interest in becoming more educated about which seller from which factory run has what kind of quality standards. That’s why I use Costco and Target and Walmart and Amazon and Uniqlo and other brands to go out there and do that work. All I want to know is that I’ll be able to return something if it isn’t satisfactory.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        And that's how you later get taken advantage of and how Amazon starts to be as bad as Comcast's customer service. But you can't leave because competition is gone. You don't have to care per se, that's what the government is for. But taking the time and energy to argue against your long term best interests is disappointing.
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  All retailers do that. It's called private labels. None of the products are made by the retailer either. As unfortunate to those who might genuinely believe Trader Joes products are unique to them, or that Great Value was Walmart using its massive distribution systems to quickly scale core products like Milk out. It's all private labelling.
  - tpxl 2y ago
    Amazon is not a traditional retails, it's a marketplace. Walmart buys stock, puts it on sale, gets data and makes decisions upon that. Amazon just skips the expensive first 2 steps by taking data from other retailers on their platform.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  Yes, how dare they use their scale to make more cost-effective versions of popular things.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    how dare they use their algorithms to make sure all their cost effective versions will show up first. That's probably the more pressing issue.
  - consteval 2y ago
    It doesn't really count when they: 1. Have access to immense amounts of data about these products that the manufacturers don't. Because they own the marketplace. 2. Can freely advertise, push, or even force their own products as much as possible. Because they own the marketplace.

the_gorilla 2y ago

I don't think it's part of an antitrust case, but I am tired of seeing every item being sold from 200 chinese companies with randomly generated names and fake/bought reviews. Walmart has started to do something similar with their online store. I'll use their words. > It's easy to sell online with Walmart.com. Partner with the largest multi-channel retailer and put your products in front of millions of Walmart shoppers. Americans are used to American storefronts going through American regulations, but now you're essentially being dropshipped hazardous unregulated products. I generally try to buy from companies directly but this hasn't stopped my family from buying chinesium children toys for me that go straight into the trash.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
> you're essentially being dropshipped hazardous unregulated products. How did we end up here? Like why the hell can I buy things on Amazon that can't legally be sold on shelves in the US? Why aren't retailers suing?
- esskay 2y ago
  > Why aren't retailers suing? Because Amazons wiped a lot of them out, and the ones that remain are either doing the same thing, or stand zero chance of comign out of it anything less than bankrupt. Amazon for all its convenience has decimated likely close to if not more than a million businesses at this point across the world.
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  The CPSC has sued and won https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2024/CPSC-Finds-Amazon-Responsible-Under-Federal-Safety-Law-for-Hazardous-Products-Sold-by-Third-Party-Sellers-on-Amazon-com https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2024/CPSC-Finds-... Amazon used the excuse it wasn't acting as a distributor and thus shouldn't be held responsible for protecting the public from these products
Loughla 2y ago
>I generally try to buy from companies directly This is the secret today. Find the product you want, buy straight from that company. Anymore the storefronts are all uniform and shipping (which used to be Amazon's advantage) is the same. The days of massive online retailers dominating is over at my house. I just wish more people would figure that out.

psunavy03 2y ago

You mean you don't like having the choice between ZOSLRD-branded stuff and TUMACO-branded stuff, both of which have descriptions that look like someone put Mandarin Chinese through an LLM, because that's probably what they did?

shitlord 2y ago
Why is it so common for Chinese sellers on Amazon to have uppercase company names?
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  Selling on Amazon requires a registered trademark. If you're a random factory in Shenzhen you don't care about branding, you just want to be able to sell your stuff on Amazon, so you just put together random letters in the hope that your registration won't conflict with anything else. You don't want to have to deal with back-and-forth with USPTO, you don't care about having a meaningful, memorable, or interesting name, you just want an Amazon listing. Coincidentally the majority of USPTO trademark submissions are literally just random strings of letters now for this reason.
  - shitlord 2y ago
    That explains the random names, but what's with the upper case lettering?
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      if I had to take a blind guess: Chinese doesn't have a concept of casesensitivity. It's a logographic language so casesensitivity is almost irrelevant.
  - unmole 2y ago
    > Selling on Amazon requires a registered trademark This is not true. A trademark is only required for Amazon's brand registry which gives brand owners control over who is allowed to sell their branded products.

richwater 2y ago

> I hope they include Amazon's practice of taking popular products on their storefront, making generic "Amazon Basics" versions, and selling them to undercut the popular options. I guess you hate every grocery store ever then

adventured 2y ago
And competition. One of the ways companies like Walmart hold their popular brand name companies in check on pricing power is through their store brands. Why should I feel bad about Kraft being under permanent pressure by Walmart's Great Value brand? More competition is needed, not less. Along with more transparency. Banning Amazon from competing would be a mistake. They need a more level playing field, not fewer players.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Selling carrots is much different than developing a store brand product based on the algorithms only you have access to. Amazon is basically outsourcing R&D and market research to startups then taking the market away once they have a success.

ApolloFortyNine 2y ago

Idk how you fix that without effecting store brands at grocery stores. And I think store brands are pretty mostly a win for the consumer (this is important for any monopoly case).

zizee 2y ago
Do I understand that you like/appreciate grocery store brands, but dislike Amazon's store brand? If so, what is the distinction you see between the two?
- ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
  >Do I understand that No I didn't say that.

Mistletoe 2y ago

My Amazon Basics RCA cables and many other items are the best versions of those items I own. The quality is very very good. I actually like that feature of Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Basics-Speaker-Subwoofer-Gold-Plated/dp/B01D5H8P0G https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Basics-Speaker-Subwoofer-Gold-...

tzs 2y ago

So let's say they aren't allowed to both own a marketplace and sell their own generic product in that marketplace, and so they have to spin Amazon Basics (AB) off into a separate company that is not treated any differently than any other seller on Amazon the marketplace (AM). AB can still look at AM listings in a category and note what is popular (just like anyone can do since that is part of the details AM generally includes in listings), and make a generic version (just like anyone can do), and then sell that on AM. AB products are usually pretty good and usually quite reasonably priced and so even if treated exactly the same as everything else in their category are still likely to end up being included in the products that get algorithmically recommended as alternatives. It's not clear to me how this would improve competition. As far as your point on Chinese retailers goes, you are arguing that Amazon should allow fewer sellers and those sellers should be more regulated. That may be a good thing but I'm having some difficulty seeing how it is an antitrust thing.