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Custom fit lightweight wheelchairs are expensive. My Ti-Lite (one of the most popular lightweight chair brands) Aero Z starts at $3k and goes up quickly with wh

by fotta 2y ago

Custom fit lightweight wheelchairs are expensive. My Ti-Lite (one of the most popular lightweight chair brands) Aero Z starts at $3k and goes up quickly with wheels and backrest and casters and various other options that I need for sitting 16 hours a day without creating more problems. Insurance covers this for me every 5 years, but of course that's not a luxury every one has. Most plans don't cover DME 100%. What Zack and Cambry are doing is great. (edit) I’d like to add that I think part of being able to drive costs down is that they’re not offering these via insurance so they sidestep the need for FDA approval to market it as a medical device (hence the company name), CMS approval and HCPCS coding and all the regulatory costs that come with that. Now don't get me started on power wheelchair cost...

gibrown 2y ago
Ya, I was expecting to see something not very impressive at that link, but was pleasantly surprised. My chair is about $7k and while this one doesn't look like it would work for me, it is definitely much better than the cheap hospital chairs.
- max-ibel 2y ago
  Are the hospital chairs cheap? Genuinely asking...
  - roywiggins 2y ago
    Amazon appears to offer such chairs for like $200? They're probably crap though.
    - paledot 2y ago
      They're crap. And that's what you find at hospitals and airports.
- svpk 2y ago
  If you don’t mind sharing, what aspects of it make it seem like it wouldn’t work for you?
Narhem 2y ago
Anything medical becomes a licensing nightmare. With how expensive power wheelchairs get I’m shocked they don’t come with a flight box.
humbleferret 2y ago
I was curious so looked at a few power wheelchairs...It's wild how expensive they are, especially considering the advancements in electric mobility tech elsewhere. You'd think they'd share some components with e-scooters, e-bikes, or even electric cars – motors, batteries, controllers. Are the powertrains and control systems in power wheelchairs really that specialised? Or is it another case of the medical device markup and regulatory hurdles driving up costs?
- tim333 2y ago
  It's impressive and a little sad how cheap you can get them second hand.
- amiga 2y ago
  I'm a guy who has disassembled and reverse engineered a standard Jazzy power chair, and what I noticed was the attention to detail regarding failures. The chair is thoroughly designed to shut down at the slightest bit of trouble. There's some redundancy in things like the controller, where it used redundant hall effect sensors that were identical to the others, but ran in an inverted power profile, to detect any weirdness in the sensor outputs. I ended up adding a long range remote control to it. A remote control power chair is fun to drive around. People do get a little concerned when they see a chair rolling around without a driver
  - orlehuxwell 2y ago
    My mum recently had a curbside crash while she was riding an e-bike. This resulted in her breaking bones in both her hands, which resulted in a surgery in her left hand and various problems (tcl fracture related) with her right hand. This makes me actually appreciate reliability in e-vehicles motor cutoffs etc. I keep thinking if this could have been avoided with a better quality e-bike or if actually it would be even worst with a cheaper one. Which makes one think, how often a wheelchair with cheap e-scooter parts would crash people into staris, cars etc
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
tomcam 2y ago
Hey, would you get started on power wheelchair costs? Inquiring minds would like to learn more.
sizzle 2y ago
What do you recommend for my parent, they are using a crappy Medicare approved Medline wheelchair that’s like $300 on Amazon. They can’t use their right side of their body really due to a stroke paralysis. The wheelchair is like starting to fall apart. What should I I get them that will last many years? Thanks!
- fotta 2y ago
  You should really have an ATP evaluate them to determine what they need. Hemiparesis and a bad fitting chair is no joke. Unfortunately this is likely to be expensive (as noted in this entire post). You can try getting a lightweight chair like a TiLite or Quickie online, but the fitting and sizing is the most important part and in my experience a trained professional is the best route your first time around. After that, as you become more familiar with the needs of your parent you can make adjustments in the future.
zeroq 2y ago
I'm a big fan of his channel, but when I saw the price tag, it got me thinking for a moment. Wheelchairs are a great example of why niche products are expensive. I think you're spot on with certifications. I was stupid a few times and needed orthopedic equipment. Each time, the price flabbergasted me. But it didn't matter since the health insurance fully refunded it. In a regulated market, if you can influence the cap, the item will cost exactly that, no less. And if the market is small enough to not allow any disruption, then it will stay that way forever. I need to talk to my girlfriend who's a physiotherapist about it. But for now I'm hoping his YouTube fame would start a snowball effect. Thinking he could do with the wheelchairs what Elon is pretending to do with EVs is truly exciting.
- devjab 2y ago
  It’s not that small of a market if you consider how many wheelchairs the European public sector buys. Take your average Danish hospital and they’ll have at least 10 wheelchairs placed at every major entrance. They’re basically like shopping carts in a lot of public healthcare places. These are semi-regularity replaced because of wear and tear. If you could supply them with a cheap, solid be easily repairable version you could disrupt that market. Of course you’re not going to have a very easy time entering the market. But even though they buy these things on regulated supply deals, they’re not cheap. If you could get a certified electric one on top of a (I’m not sure if it’s called regular), then you would be posed for disrupting the market.
  - urban_winter 2y ago
    $1000 is not cheap for an off the shelf wheelchair such as hospitals make available for patients (in the UK, at least). That was my first thought on reading the article - "$1000 for a wheelchair, really?" - and a quick Google shows that you can buy what looks like reasonable quality wheelchairs for less than that. But the ones on the article are custom-made for each buyer, which is clearly a vastly more expensive option. But, to the point, hospitals don't buy custom wheelchairs.
    - seb1204 2y ago
bradley13 2y ago
A manual wheelchair is less complex than a bicycle, and I can get a decent bicycle for a few hundred bucks. The fact that basic wheelchairs are crazy expensive has little to do with the chairs and a lot to do with insane bureaucracy.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Well, bicycles have more demand and volume (presumably), so that would play in to it. But yes, bicycles are a good point of reference.
  - spaceman_2020 2y ago
    Why? The comfort level and ergonomics demands are completely different. Bicycles are for a few hours of weekly use. Wheelchairs are for 16 hours of daily use.
    - throwaway346434 2y ago
      Bicycles built for long duration use - people do ride for 16-24 hours straight more than you'd think do exist.
      - zxexz 2y ago
        How many of them do that every day? And of those people that do, how much do you think they spend on their bikes?
        roywiggins 2y ago
        And, when people do use cheap bikes that don't really fit them out of necessity long-term, what's the toll on their body? It's probably not zero!
        spaceman_2020 2y ago
        The parent comment is so bizarre No one who uses a wheelchair does it because they like doing it Everyone who rides a bike for 16 hours a day does it because they like doing it, and/or they’re an athlete When you’re done riding your bike for 16 hours a day - likely one week in a year - you can go to the gym, stretch out The wheelchair guy has to drag himself everywhere
rs25 2y ago
I just want to add some context here because i feel like there is a large gap in understanding of what a wheelchair actually is. Please click through these and get an understanding of the level of detail required to be properly fitted for a wheelchair. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hylifiyf/creative-mobility-division-2024-47.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hylifiyf/creative... - note the clinical rationale and notes sections on each of these options. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/4ozh2ary/tilite-seating-system-order-form-final-2024-01-_us.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/4ozh2ary/tilite-s... - seating cushions and backrests https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/npxlfuoh/tr-tra-order-form-final-2024-01-_us.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/npxlfuoh/tr-tra-o... - current ti lite order form. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hjvhuqlw/tilite-parts-price-list-2023.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hjvhuqlw/tilite-p... - component list / prices. There are almost 11,000 individual parts that are available for purchase for years after the chair is sold so it can be supported through the expected life of 5 - 7 years usually. And through all of this you are working with professional therapists that are trained to properly size all these measurements, because an ill fitting chair can cause more harm than good.
- paledot 2y ago
  This is a bit like saying that an ill-fitting bicycle can cause more harm than good: technically true but missing the point. Sometimes it's valuable to have a cheap bicycle that you can expose to the elements without worrying about messing up the high-end components on your more expensive bike. These seem to be mainly intended as secondary chairs or for part-time wheelchair users, rather than as primary chairs. My wife has three wheelchairs and I can see a case for buying one of these as her fourth. Mind you, the situation with electric wheelchairs is very different. Many electric wheelchair users are at elevated risk of pressure sores, may not be able to get in and out or reposition themselves independently, etc. The profit margins on these chairs are still inexcusable, but the amount of custom fitting and memory foam everything is warranted because the user may well be in this chair, in that position all day every day. The cupholder and the umbrella mount are must-have accessories.
space_oddity 2y ago
Device so essential to daily life is treated in such a costly, bureaucratic manner
interactivecode 2y ago
So about the price of a Herman miller chair. Honestly sounds pretty reasonable to me. Though ideally it was less so price doesn’t limit access

by fotta 2y ago

gibrown 2y ago

Ya, I was expecting to see something not very impressive at that link, but was pleasantly surprised. My chair is about $7k and while this one doesn't look like it would work for me, it is definitely much better than the cheap hospital chairs.

max-ibel 2y ago
Are the hospital chairs cheap? Genuinely asking...
- roywiggins 2y ago
  Amazon appears to offer such chairs for like $200? They're probably crap though.
  - paledot 2y ago
    They're crap. And that's what you find at hospitals and airports.
svpk 2y ago
If you don’t mind sharing, what aspects of it make it seem like it wouldn’t work for you?

Narhem 2y ago

Anything medical becomes a licensing nightmare. With how expensive power wheelchairs get I’m shocked they don’t come with a flight box.

humbleferret 2y ago

I was curious so looked at a few power wheelchairs...It's wild how expensive they are, especially considering the advancements in electric mobility tech elsewhere. You'd think they'd share some components with e-scooters, e-bikes, or even electric cars – motors, batteries, controllers. Are the powertrains and control systems in power wheelchairs really that specialised? Or is it another case of the medical device markup and regulatory hurdles driving up costs?

tim333 2y ago
It's impressive and a little sad how cheap you can get them second hand.
amiga 2y ago
I'm a guy who has disassembled and reverse engineered a standard Jazzy power chair, and what I noticed was the attention to detail regarding failures. The chair is thoroughly designed to shut down at the slightest bit of trouble. There's some redundancy in things like the controller, where it used redundant hall effect sensors that were identical to the others, but ran in an inverted power profile, to detect any weirdness in the sensor outputs. I ended up adding a long range remote control to it. A remote control power chair is fun to drive around. People do get a little concerned when they see a chair rolling around without a driver
- orlehuxwell 2y ago
  My mum recently had a curbside crash while she was riding an e-bike. This resulted in her breaking bones in both her hands, which resulted in a surgery in her left hand and various problems (tcl fracture related) with her right hand. This makes me actually appreciate reliability in e-vehicles motor cutoffs etc. I keep thinking if this could have been avoided with a better quality e-bike or if actually it would be even worst with a cheaper one. Which makes one think, how often a wheelchair with cheap e-scooter parts would crash people into staris, cars etc
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago

tomcam 2y ago

Hey, would you get started on power wheelchair costs? Inquiring minds would like to learn more.

sizzle 2y ago

What do you recommend for my parent, they are using a crappy Medicare approved Medline wheelchair that’s like $300 on Amazon. They can’t use their right side of their body really due to a stroke paralysis. The wheelchair is like starting to fall apart. What should I I get them that will last many years? Thanks!

fotta 2y ago
You should really have an ATP evaluate them to determine what they need. Hemiparesis and a bad fitting chair is no joke. Unfortunately this is likely to be expensive (as noted in this entire post). You can try getting a lightweight chair like a TiLite or Quickie online, but the fitting and sizing is the most important part and in my experience a trained professional is the best route your first time around. After that, as you become more familiar with the needs of your parent you can make adjustments in the future.

zeroq 2y ago

I'm a big fan of his channel, but when I saw the price tag, it got me thinking for a moment. Wheelchairs are a great example of why niche products are expensive. I think you're spot on with certifications. I was stupid a few times and needed orthopedic equipment. Each time, the price flabbergasted me. But it didn't matter since the health insurance fully refunded it. In a regulated market, if you can influence the cap, the item will cost exactly that, no less. And if the market is small enough to not allow any disruption, then it will stay that way forever. I need to talk to my girlfriend who's a physiotherapist about it. But for now I'm hoping his YouTube fame would start a snowball effect. Thinking he could do with the wheelchairs what Elon is pretending to do with EVs is truly exciting.

devjab 2y ago
It’s not that small of a market if you consider how many wheelchairs the European public sector buys. Take your average Danish hospital and they’ll have at least 10 wheelchairs placed at every major entrance. They’re basically like shopping carts in a lot of public healthcare places. These are semi-regularity replaced because of wear and tear. If you could supply them with a cheap, solid be easily repairable version you could disrupt that market. Of course you’re not going to have a very easy time entering the market. But even though they buy these things on regulated supply deals, they’re not cheap. If you could get a certified electric one on top of a (I’m not sure if it’s called regular), then you would be posed for disrupting the market.
- urban_winter 2y ago
  $1000 is not cheap for an off the shelf wheelchair such as hospitals make available for patients (in the UK, at least). That was my first thought on reading the article - "$1000 for a wheelchair, really?" - and a quick Google shows that you can buy what looks like reasonable quality wheelchairs for less than that. But the ones on the article are custom-made for each buyer, which is clearly a vastly more expensive option. But, to the point, hospitals don't buy custom wheelchairs.
  - seb1204 2y ago

bradley13 2y ago

A manual wheelchair is less complex than a bicycle, and I can get a decent bicycle for a few hundred bucks. The fact that basic wheelchairs are crazy expensive has little to do with the chairs and a lot to do with insane bureaucracy.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Well, bicycles have more demand and volume (presumably), so that would play in to it. But yes, bicycles are a good point of reference.
- spaceman_2020 2y ago
  Why? The comfort level and ergonomics demands are completely different. Bicycles are for a few hours of weekly use. Wheelchairs are for 16 hours of daily use.
  - throwaway346434 2y ago
    Bicycles built for long duration use - people do ride for 16-24 hours straight more than you'd think do exist.
    - zxexz 2y ago
      How many of them do that every day? And of those people that do, how much do you think they spend on their bikes?
      - roywiggins 2y ago
        And, when people do use cheap bikes that don't really fit them out of necessity long-term, what's the toll on their body? It's probably not zero!
      - spaceman_2020 2y ago
        The parent comment is so bizarre No one who uses a wheelchair does it because they like doing it Everyone who rides a bike for 16 hours a day does it because they like doing it, and/or they’re an athlete When you’re done riding your bike for 16 hours a day - likely one week in a year - you can go to the gym, stretch out The wheelchair guy has to drag himself everywhere

rs25 2y ago

I just want to add some context here because i feel like there is a large gap in understanding of what a wheelchair actually is. Please click through these and get an understanding of the level of detail required to be properly fitted for a wheelchair. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hylifiyf/creative-mobility-division-2024-47.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hylifiyf/creative... - note the clinical rationale and notes sections on each of these options. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/4ozh2ary/tilite-seating-system-order-form-final-2024-01-_us.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/4ozh2ary/tilite-s... - seating cushions and backrests https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/npxlfuoh/tr-tra-order-form-final-2024-01-_us.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/npxlfuoh/tr-tra-o... - current ti lite order form. https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hjvhuqlw/tilite-parts-price-list-2023.pdf https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/media/hjvhuqlw/tilite-p... - component list / prices. There are almost 11,000 individual parts that are available for purchase for years after the chair is sold so it can be supported through the expected life of 5 - 7 years usually. And through all of this you are working with professional therapists that are trained to properly size all these measurements, because an ill fitting chair can cause more harm than good.

paledot 2y ago
This is a bit like saying that an ill-fitting bicycle can cause more harm than good: technically true but missing the point. Sometimes it's valuable to have a cheap bicycle that you can expose to the elements without worrying about messing up the high-end components on your more expensive bike. These seem to be mainly intended as secondary chairs or for part-time wheelchair users, rather than as primary chairs. My wife has three wheelchairs and I can see a case for buying one of these as her fourth. Mind you, the situation with electric wheelchairs is very different. Many electric wheelchair users are at elevated risk of pressure sores, may not be able to get in and out or reposition themselves independently, etc. The profit margins on these chairs are still inexcusable, but the amount of custom fitting and memory foam everything is warranted because the user may well be in this chair, in that position all day every day. The cupholder and the umbrella mount are must-have accessories.

space_oddity 2y ago

Device so essential to daily life is treated in such a costly, bureaucratic manner

interactivecode 2y ago

So about the price of a Herman miller chair. Honestly sounds pretty reasonable to me. Though ideally it was less so price doesn’t limit access