7 ms·

Berlin's new 107,000 ft² startup factory

65 points by danielfrese 14y ago

unwind 14y ago
Berlin is in Europe, so quoting the area as 10,000 m^2 (as in the original article) would have been nice. Are most HN readers really from the US?
- mike-cardwell 14y ago
  I suspect most HN readers are from the US yes. Also, in the UK we're happy to use either feet or metres.
  - rmc 14y ago
    BACK OFF BRUSSLES! SAVE THE BRITISH FOOT! etc. etc. </sarcasm>
- sasvari 14y ago
  Are most HN readers really from the US? I ran a poll here a couple of months ago [0]. While far from being accurate, it could at least be considered somehow representative for the HN audience (it lasted more than 24h on the front page, so all time zones were covered). Even though the non-US group seems to have caught up compared to a couple of years back, the US still dominates the HN audience. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905 Edit: typo
  - j_s 14y ago
    Circa 2009 (first Google result) non-US was 40% http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-analysis/ http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-...
- phpnode 14y ago
  Yes, assuming this is broadly representative http://hackernewsers.com/pages/map.html http://hackernewsers.com/pages/map.html
- leftnode 14y ago
  Or, to satisfy both crowds, the title could have had " ... 10,000 m^2 (107,000 ft^2) ... ".
  - planetguy 14y ago
    Or to satisfy both crowds it could have been either, and we could have assumed that the reader is smart enough to be able to know how many square feet there are in a square metre, to within the desired accuracy. Ten and a bit square feet to the square metre. Know it, use it, love it.
    - stephenhuey 14y ago
      Wow, that seems so obvious now! Never occurred to me before, but I love it.
- CurtHagenlocher 14y ago
  Not only that, calling it "107,000 ft^2" amounts to inventing significant digits.
wowoc 14y ago
Is it possible to do a startup there for someone not knowing German?
- fs111 14y ago
  The soundcloud guys are Swedish and wooga has AFAIK an English-as-company-language policy, so I guess the answer is yes.
  - stigi 14y ago
    true. but if you want to found your company in germany you better get a good german tax consultant & lawyer.
- BvS 14y ago
  You will get along with English just fine although you will probably miss out a little with regards to your social life.
  - dualogy 14y ago
    Not sure. The expat scene seems so vast whenever I'm back in good ol' Berlin (and more so every time). Flocks of English-speaking-people-of-all-accents everywhere I look (well inside the "groovy" parts of town of course). I wouldn't imagine anyone having to miss out on social life in Berlin, at least not due to language.
    - BvS 14y ago
      You'll be able to have a great time for sure but there will be still some locals you will have a hard time to interact with, some jokes you won't get, some shows which will make no sense to you etc. Nothing to worry about but it still can make a difference to know at least a little German.
      - dualogy 14y ago
        Well, being a native German speaker I still suffer from all of the above issues with "some locals" on a routine basis... But yeah, true, sure, knowing languages is always useful and can make a difference :)
nemesisj 14y ago
Can anyone name a successful startup not also located within the valley, NYC, or Boston that started from one of these coworking or incubator spaces? Not being snarky, but it may come across that way. Just genuinely curious.
- ironchef 14y ago
  I'm sure there's lots, but it also depends on your definition of success. Here in Chicago we've got groupon, threadless, braintree, thinkorswim, 37 signals, orbitz, and then, of course, a number of places which have cashed out to acquisitions (like feedburner).
- codesuela 14y ago
  Wooga, Soundcloud, Spreadshirt and maybe Amen come to mind (all Berlin based). Not to name the hugely successful Samwer clones like Zalando (biggest online shoe e-commerce business in Europe, Zappos clone).
- alexro 14y ago
  Skype was started in Europe
Henwys 14y ago
I really like the idea of spaces like this. I would like to see one be successful in research triangle park, NC.
swombat 14y ago
Nice idea, and I'm sure it'll be a nice building, and good fun to work in, but the magic ingredient in a "startup factory" is most definitely not office space.
cs702 14y ago
I tend to be skeptical of these efforts at engineering startup hubs out of thin air by building great new facilities. Many other complex, inter-related factors are necessary to have a successful startup hub. As pg himself put it: "Building office buildings for technology companies won't get you a silicon valley, because the key stage in the life of a startup happens before they want that kind of space. The key stage is when they're three guys operating out of an apartment."[1] (He's covered this topic more than once -- e.g., see [2] below.) -- [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html
CapitalistCartr 14y ago
Its too easy to substitute working on the tools and resources for working on the actual goal. I separate new managers that way: some focus on the job at hand, many focus on the setup of their office, the desk, chair, parking space, etc. A building is the easy part to creating a startup incubator; its a tool/resource for the job. Money is just another resource, and the investor a vendor, unless they're like YCombinator. Groups like this bring much more to the table than money; their focus isn't on the building, either. Build the project; you'll find the tools along the way.
jdcryans 14y ago
If there's one thing that's always been proven true it's that startups are made the same way objects are manufactured. More seriously I do wish them success, the tech scene in Berlin seemed vibrant when I was there for a conference and it's a beautiful city.
nirvana 14y ago
My co-founder mentioned there is some sort of german "self employment" visa, that will allow you to get residency in Germany without having to work for a local company. I don't know any more details bout that, but would love to hear from someone who has actually gone thru the process, if anyone on HN has. Berlin is becoming a bit of a startup hub for europe, and with the economic issues this may increase if the other states start hurting small companies as they try to shore up their budgets. This is the kind of things I'd never use, probably, except for meetups and stuff like that. But, unlike others, I think it is good that it is being built. Yes, the magic happens when you're working from your apartment or basement- and in fact, that's my preferred place to work (all founders under one roof, zero commute times, etc.) But why is it, whenever someone says "This useful thing for startups is happening in some city" the responses are "You're not creating silicon valley!!!" Nobody said they were replicating silicon valley. Why are the defenders of silicon valley so defensive that every time something involving startups happens out side of california, they have to pile in and say that silicon valley can't be replicated? Hey, personally, that's great. I lived in the bay area. It isn't a good place to do a startup on all the criteria that matter to me (burn rate, employee availability, etc.) But it is certainly great for people whom, for the first time in their lives, they have lots of smart people to hang around with. If that's you, I can see why you'd love it. It is also great if you're doing the "google acquisition target startup" and need VC money, or a number of other possibilities. But silicon valley does not have a patent on the idea of doing a startup, and in this globalized world, the barriers for doing startups have dropped all over the world, and thus it is GOOD that Berlin and other cities are becoming good places to do startups. Especially since many companies simply can't relocate to Silicon valley. For instance, one of my co founders is not a US citizen. Silicon Valley is not an option for us.
- Vitaly 14y ago
  I went to our local embassy in Tel Aviv but they were not very helpful, quite hostile actually. When I asked about the different kinds of visa, saying that I can apply in different possible ways (as self employed, as an employee of my own company sent overseas, etc) depending on which gives me the best chance to get the visa they said literally "we are not here to help you get into Germany, we are not a market for visas. you choose by yourself how do you want to apply and we'll send it back home for approval/denial" so, I found a german lawyer over the internet to get advice. Long story short (this is not legal advice, btw ;) - self employment visa has some bizarre requirements like "investing 250K EUR and employing 5 locals" to get it "automatically". you can still get it with less but you'll have to prove your 'economic worth' to the region, which might not be trivial and needs a lot of paperwork. - there is another kind of self employed visa, which is sometimes called an 'artist visa' and it is given to artists, teachers, engineers and some other well defined categories of self employed people. The problem with this kind of visa is that software engineers are not listed on the list, and are not legally considered 'engineers'. me, I'll probably take my chances with the first kind. going to start the application process soon. BTW, if anyone has any corroborating or conflicting evidence, I'll be very glad to hear it.

65 points by danielfrese 14y ago

Berlin is in Europe, so quoting the area as 10,000 m^2 (as in the original article) would have been nice. Are most HN readers really from the US?

mike-cardwell 14y ago
I suspect most HN readers are from the US yes. Also, in the UK we're happy to use either feet or metres.
- rmc 14y ago
  BACK OFF BRUSSLES! SAVE THE BRITISH FOOT! etc. etc. </sarcasm>
sasvari 14y ago
Are most HN readers really from the US? I ran a poll here a couple of months ago [0]. While far from being accurate, it could at least be considered somehow representative for the HN audience (it lasted more than 24h on the front page, so all time zones were covered). Even though the non-US group seems to have caught up compared to a couple of years back, the US still dominates the HN audience. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905 Edit: typo
- j_s 14y ago
  Circa 2009 (first Google result) non-US was 40% http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-analysis/ http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-...
phpnode 14y ago
Yes, assuming this is broadly representative http://hackernewsers.com/pages/map.html http://hackernewsers.com/pages/map.html
leftnode 14y ago
Or, to satisfy both crowds, the title could have had " ... 10,000 m^2 (107,000 ft^2) ... ".
- planetguy 14y ago
  Or to satisfy both crowds it could have been either, and we could have assumed that the reader is smart enough to be able to know how many square feet there are in a square metre, to within the desired accuracy. Ten and a bit square feet to the square metre. Know it, use it, love it.
  - stephenhuey 14y ago
    Wow, that seems so obvious now! Never occurred to me before, but I love it.
CurtHagenlocher 14y ago
Not only that, calling it "107,000 ft^2" amounts to inventing significant digits.

wowoc 14y ago

Is it possible to do a startup there for someone not knowing German?

fs111 14y ago
The soundcloud guys are Swedish and wooga has AFAIK an English-as-company-language policy, so I guess the answer is yes.
- stigi 14y ago
  true. but if you want to found your company in germany you better get a good german tax consultant & lawyer.
BvS 14y ago
You will get along with English just fine although you will probably miss out a little with regards to your social life.
- dualogy 14y ago
  Not sure. The expat scene seems so vast whenever I'm back in good ol' Berlin (and more so every time). Flocks of English-speaking-people-of-all-accents everywhere I look (well inside the "groovy" parts of town of course). I wouldn't imagine anyone having to miss out on social life in Berlin, at least not due to language.
  - BvS 14y ago
    You'll be able to have a great time for sure but there will be still some locals you will have a hard time to interact with, some jokes you won't get, some shows which will make no sense to you etc. Nothing to worry about but it still can make a difference to know at least a little German.
    - dualogy 14y ago
      Well, being a native German speaker I still suffer from all of the above issues with "some locals" on a routine basis... But yeah, true, sure, knowing languages is always useful and can make a difference :)

nemesisj 14y ago

Can anyone name a successful startup not also located within the valley, NYC, or Boston that started from one of these coworking or incubator spaces? Not being snarky, but it may come across that way. Just genuinely curious.

ironchef 14y ago
I'm sure there's lots, but it also depends on your definition of success. Here in Chicago we've got groupon, threadless, braintree, thinkorswim, 37 signals, orbitz, and then, of course, a number of places which have cashed out to acquisitions (like feedburner).
codesuela 14y ago
Wooga, Soundcloud, Spreadshirt and maybe Amen come to mind (all Berlin based). Not to name the hugely successful Samwer clones like Zalando (biggest online shoe e-commerce business in Europe, Zappos clone).
alexro 14y ago
Skype was started in Europe

Henwys 14y ago

I really like the idea of spaces like this. I would like to see one be successful in research triangle park, NC.

swombat 14y ago

Nice idea, and I'm sure it'll be a nice building, and good fun to work in, but the magic ingredient in a "startup factory" is most definitely not office space.

cs702 14y ago

I tend to be skeptical of these efforts at engineering startup hubs out of thin air by building great new facilities. Many other complex, inter-related factors are necessary to have a successful startup hub. As pg himself put it: "Building office buildings for technology companies won't get you a silicon valley, because the key stage in the life of a startup happens before they want that kind of space. The key stage is when they're three guys operating out of an apartment."[1] (He's covered this topic more than once -- e.g., see [2] below.) -- [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html

CapitalistCartr 14y ago

Its too easy to substitute working on the tools and resources for working on the actual goal. I separate new managers that way: some focus on the job at hand, many focus on the setup of their office, the desk, chair, parking space, etc. A building is the easy part to creating a startup incubator; its a tool/resource for the job. Money is just another resource, and the investor a vendor, unless they're like YCombinator. Groups like this bring much more to the table than money; their focus isn't on the building, either. Build the project; you'll find the tools along the way.

jdcryans 14y ago

If there's one thing that's always been proven true it's that startups are made the same way objects are manufactured. More seriously I do wish them success, the tech scene in Berlin seemed vibrant when I was there for a conference and it's a beautiful city.

nirvana 14y ago

My co-founder mentioned there is some sort of german "self employment" visa, that will allow you to get residency in Germany without having to work for a local company. I don't know any more details bout that, but would love to hear from someone who has actually gone thru the process, if anyone on HN has. Berlin is becoming a bit of a startup hub for europe, and with the economic issues this may increase if the other states start hurting small companies as they try to shore up their budgets. This is the kind of things I'd never use, probably, except for meetups and stuff like that. But, unlike others, I think it is good that it is being built. Yes, the magic happens when you're working from your apartment or basement- and in fact, that's my preferred place to work (all founders under one roof, zero commute times, etc.) But why is it, whenever someone says "This useful thing for startups is happening in some city" the responses are "You're not creating silicon valley!!!" Nobody said they were replicating silicon valley. Why are the defenders of silicon valley so defensive that every time something involving startups happens out side of california, they have to pile in and say that silicon valley can't be replicated? Hey, personally, that's great. I lived in the bay area. It isn't a good place to do a startup on all the criteria that matter to me (burn rate, employee availability, etc.) But it is certainly great for people whom, for the first time in their lives, they have lots of smart people to hang around with. If that's you, I can see why you'd love it. It is also great if you're doing the "google acquisition target startup" and need VC money, or a number of other possibilities. But silicon valley does not have a patent on the idea of doing a startup, and in this globalized world, the barriers for doing startups have dropped all over the world, and thus it is GOOD that Berlin and other cities are becoming good places to do startups. Especially since many companies simply can't relocate to Silicon valley. For instance, one of my co founders is not a US citizen. Silicon Valley is not an option for us.

Vitaly 14y ago
I went to our local embassy in Tel Aviv but they were not very helpful, quite hostile actually. When I asked about the different kinds of visa, saying that I can apply in different possible ways (as self employed, as an employee of my own company sent overseas, etc) depending on which gives me the best chance to get the visa they said literally "we are not here to help you get into Germany, we are not a market for visas. you choose by yourself how do you want to apply and we'll send it back home for approval/denial" so, I found a german lawyer over the internet to get advice. Long story short (this is not legal advice, btw ;) - self employment visa has some bizarre requirements like "investing 250K EUR and employing 5 locals" to get it "automatically". you can still get it with less but you'll have to prove your 'economic worth' to the region, which might not be trivial and needs a lot of paperwork. - there is another kind of self employed visa, which is sometimes called an 'artist visa' and it is given to artists, teachers, engineers and some other well defined categories of self employed people. The problem with this kind of visa is that software engineers are not listed on the list, and are not legally considered 'engineers'. me, I'll probably take my chances with the first kind. going to start the application process soon. BTW, if anyone has any corroborating or conflicting evidence, I'll be very glad to hear it.