6 ms·

Agreed – you can never truly be completely "safe", but Tor remains the most privacy-preserving tool we've got. When people say they're distrustful of Tor (for

by toby- 2y ago

Agreed – you can never truly be completely "safe", but Tor remains the most privacy-preserving tool we've got. When people say they're distrustful of Tor (for various reasons) to the extent they refuse to use it, they seldom suggest alternative tools/measures that provide anywhere near the level of safety offered by Tor.

dev1ycan 2y ago
The argument is that using "privacy" tools makes it easier for a party to single you out, and they do have a point.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  They have the opposite of a point. The logical conclusion of that line of reasoning is that everyone should use privacy tools so no one can be singled out. And that ordinary users with "nothing to hide" should be the first to start using them.
  - horsawlarway 2y ago
    I mean, sure. And while we're at it pigs should fly. Functional security means understanding your risks, and using privacy tools is a risk - in the sense that it does single you out in the current environment. Your actual communications can be secure, but that doesn't stop a bad actor/government from picking you up and beating you with a wrench until you talk - if they get suspicious enough. Just saying "everyone should use these tools!" is not actually a counter-argument. It's a fine long term goal, but it's not addressing the real risk that some folks might be in.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      > I mean, sure. And while we're at it pigs should fly. Pigs have significantly higher density than birds and lack wings. Getting them to fly under their own power would be quite a challenge. By contrast, installing Tor Browser is actually pretty easy. > Your actual communications can be secure, but that doesn't stop a bad actor/government from picking you up and beating you with a wrench until you talk - if they get suspicious enough. In general this is not what happens in e.g. the United States. The act of installing or using Tor doesn't in and of itself cause anyone to beat you with a wrench. Try it. Visit HN using Tor Browser. No one comes in the night to put a bag over your head. > Just saying "everyone should use these tools!" is not actually a counter-argument. It's a fine long term goal, but it's not addressing the real risk that some folks might be in. If you live in an authoritarian country and actively oppose the government, you are already doing something that will get you punished if you're caught and then the question is, which is more likely to get you caught? Tor has several measures to reduce the probability that you're detected. Private entry guards, pluggable transports, etc. You might still get caught, but these things reduce the probability, whereas if you openly oppose the government without using any privacy technology, you're much easier to catch. Using it in this case is pretty clearly to your advantage. If you live in a country that has a modicum of respect for fundamental rights like privacy and due process, then you can use Tor when you're not breaking any laws and are just trying to avoid being tracked across the internet by Google and Facebook, because using Tor isn't in itself illegal. And doing this not only benefits you, it benefits the people in the first group who need it even more than you do, because it makes them stand out less. So who are the people who shouldn't be using it?
      - roofoos 2y ago
        > Visit HN using Tor Browser. No one comes in the night to put a bag over your head. HN used to often not create new user accounts when connecting from Tor. Twitter doesn't let a new user account to pass the prove you're human AI challenge. It says it passes but then shows an error message that there was a technical issue. By using Tor I'm cut off from Twitter. Twitter is my social media of choice. By using Tor I'm cut off from social media.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        You can sign into Twitter with an existing account via Tor. Go to a library or coffee shop with public wifi once and create an account.
        chii 2y ago
        which would defeat the purpose of tor, as your account (and presumably, your location at the time of signup), can be easily linked to your tor traffic. The reason tor traffic is often denied is because it's hard to block or track "the same" tor use, and some people used to abuse this to perform actions that the platform does not want. You cannot really have true privacy, and also have moderation of content.
        salawat 2y ago
        The assumption there is that trackability is a desirable characteristic to have in a technical system. As someone who sees technical systems as the onramps to centralized abuse by institutional power, I don't see trackability as a feature, but rather an anti feature. Consider this: just like fraud, the ideal amount of it in any purportedly liberal civilization is non-zero, because the freedom from which is derived the opportunity to engage in the behavior is more important than perfect attribution, detectability, and prosecubility of it. People don't realize that when you set goals of zero'ing out these sorts of things, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
      - horsawlarway 2y ago
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Why should ordinary users do something that provides no meaningful benefit and makes their experience substantially worse?
    - belorn 2y ago
      Anyone who search for medical information online should always use a VPN and a browser that cleans itself before and afterward. Health status is one of the most valuable user data available to data brokers and is heavily collected and sought after. I also use tor in my work in order to get a third-party perspective on a website, or when inspecting suspicious links.

by toby- 2y ago

dev1ycan 2y ago

The argument is that using "privacy" tools makes it easier for a party to single you out, and they do have a point.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
They have the opposite of a point. The logical conclusion of that line of reasoning is that everyone should use privacy tools so no one can be singled out. And that ordinary users with "nothing to hide" should be the first to start using them.
- horsawlarway 2y ago
  I mean, sure. And while we're at it pigs should fly. Functional security means understanding your risks, and using privacy tools is a risk - in the sense that it does single you out in the current environment. Your actual communications can be secure, but that doesn't stop a bad actor/government from picking you up and beating you with a wrench until you talk - if they get suspicious enough. Just saying "everyone should use these tools!" is not actually a counter-argument. It's a fine long term goal, but it's not addressing the real risk that some folks might be in.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > I mean, sure. And while we're at it pigs should fly. Pigs have significantly higher density than birds and lack wings. Getting them to fly under their own power would be quite a challenge. By contrast, installing Tor Browser is actually pretty easy. > Your actual communications can be secure, but that doesn't stop a bad actor/government from picking you up and beating you with a wrench until you talk - if they get suspicious enough. In general this is not what happens in e.g. the United States. The act of installing or using Tor doesn't in and of itself cause anyone to beat you with a wrench. Try it. Visit HN using Tor Browser. No one comes in the night to put a bag over your head. > Just saying "everyone should use these tools!" is not actually a counter-argument. It's a fine long term goal, but it's not addressing the real risk that some folks might be in. If you live in an authoritarian country and actively oppose the government, you are already doing something that will get you punished if you're caught and then the question is, which is more likely to get you caught? Tor has several measures to reduce the probability that you're detected. Private entry guards, pluggable transports, etc. You might still get caught, but these things reduce the probability, whereas if you openly oppose the government without using any privacy technology, you're much easier to catch. Using it in this case is pretty clearly to your advantage. If you live in a country that has a modicum of respect for fundamental rights like privacy and due process, then you can use Tor when you're not breaking any laws and are just trying to avoid being tracked across the internet by Google and Facebook, because using Tor isn't in itself illegal. And doing this not only benefits you, it benefits the people in the first group who need it even more than you do, because it makes them stand out less. So who are the people who shouldn't be using it?
    - roofoos 2y ago
      > Visit HN using Tor Browser. No one comes in the night to put a bag over your head. HN used to often not create new user accounts when connecting from Tor. Twitter doesn't let a new user account to pass the prove you're human AI challenge. It says it passes but then shows an error message that there was a technical issue. By using Tor I'm cut off from Twitter. Twitter is my social media of choice. By using Tor I'm cut off from social media.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        You can sign into Twitter with an existing account via Tor. Go to a library or coffee shop with public wifi once and create an account.
        chii 2y ago
        which would defeat the purpose of tor, as your account (and presumably, your location at the time of signup), can be easily linked to your tor traffic. The reason tor traffic is often denied is because it's hard to block or track "the same" tor use, and some people used to abuse this to perform actions that the platform does not want. You cannot really have true privacy, and also have moderation of content.
        salawat 2y ago
        The assumption there is that trackability is a desirable characteristic to have in a technical system. As someone who sees technical systems as the onramps to centralized abuse by institutional power, I don't see trackability as a feature, but rather an anti feature. Consider this: just like fraud, the ideal amount of it in any purportedly liberal civilization is non-zero, because the freedom from which is derived the opportunity to engage in the behavior is more important than perfect attribution, detectability, and prosecubility of it. People don't realize that when you set goals of zero'ing out these sorts of things, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    - horsawlarway 2y ago
- TylerE 2y ago
  Why should ordinary users do something that provides no meaningful benefit and makes their experience substantially worse?
  - belorn 2y ago
    Anyone who search for medical information online should always use a VPN and a browser that cleans itself before and afterward. Health status is one of the most valuable user data available to data brokers and is heavily collected and sought after. I also use tor in my work in order to get a third-party perspective on a website, or when inspecting suspicious links.