7 ms·

AC is not harmful to the planet, carbon-based sources of energy are. The ideological framing of the degrowth movement is all around us.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
scheme271 2y ago
The energy source for AC is a big issue but the refrigerant gas in most AC units cause issues for the ozone and for global climate change.
- s17tnet 2y ago
  Is this still true in 2024? AFIK, modern ( everything after 2010) ACs, pumps and refrigerator use ozone neutral gas like HFC.
  - sl-1 2y ago
    It is still true, most common refrigerants still have quite high GWP [1]. Not as bad as in the 70's, but the transition to neutral gasses is not ready yet. And then there is also all the old installed systems still running. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant#Common_refrigerants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant#Common_refrigerant...
    - himinlomax 2y ago
      It says right in the table that propane only has 3.3 times the potential of CO₂. That's in fact quite low for the use.
  - hannob 2y ago
    HFCs are amongst the most damaging climate gases. It's a very unfortunate outcome of phasing out CFCs that they have in many instances been replaced by powerful greenhouse gases. HFCs are slowly phased out as well, but there are still a lot of harmful gases out there.
- quonn 2y ago
  The typically used R32 does not cause any ozone issues. It is a climate gas, but only if it escapes from the pipes which it doesn‘t if properly installed.
herbst 2y ago
When we are actively warming the environment around us. Isn't that bad for our planet in some way? Edit:// serious question. Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know.
- itishappy 2y ago
  Not really. The Sun radiates about 1000W/m^2 of energy at Earth distances. AC won't hold a candle to that. That's why global warming conversations focus on greenhouses gases that trap the Sun's energy, not industrial processes that release heat.
Tade0 2y ago
Common refrigerants are also potent greenhouse gases. The currently used R32 is equivalent to 675x the CO2, so a typical AC unit will have several tonne equivalents of it inside. That's still an upgrade over its predecessor - R410a, for which the same figure was 2088x. Heat pumps have the same problem, which is why the recently deployed 33MW district heating heat pump in Helsinki uses CO2 as a refrigerant: https://www.man-es.com/company/press-releases/press-details/2024/08/28/man-energy-solutions-to-supply-world-s-largest-air-to-water-heat-pump-for-helsinki-s-district-heating https://www.man-es.com/company/press-releases/press-details/...
- quonn 2y ago
  It‘s only a problem if the system is not properly installed. In countries with proper regulation and professional certification this is not an issue.
  - big-green-man 2y ago
    This is incorrect. Every ounce of that stuff winds up outside eventually. Regulation can only put it off. It's a gas and it has to go somewhere. It's like trying to keep lithium out of landfills.
    - quonn 2y ago
      Please provide a source for this wild claim. Nothing winds up outside, unless it leaks. The gas can and does get reused indefinitely. Additionally and just to put it in perspective, a typical AC Split-Setup contains around 1kg of R32 which would be equivalent to 677 kg of CO2 _if_ it would leak completely over the 20 years of usage (which it doesn‘t). That‘s equivalent of the CO2 contained in 285 liters of gasoline or about driving 3000 kilometers by car (for cars using 7-8 liters). The expected leakage is 1-3 percent. So that‘s around 30 kilometers by car per year. In reality, modern ACs are widely used for heating in winter (I am doing this myself) and help to reduce CO2 emissions compared to heating with oil or gas. edit: I had to edit this twice. Actually the first estimate was correct.
hannob 2y ago
This is irrelevant nitpicking. For decades to come, we won't have 100% clean energy systems everywhere. Even if you power your AC 100% by solar energy, that solar energy won't be used to displace dirty energy elsewhere. Even if you make absolutely sure you have additional solar energy (I don't know how you'd do that), you still have production emissions for the solar panels. For the forseeable future, if you can do X with less energy than before, that's an improvement.
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  During calm hot sunny days in the summer (so.. the ones when you need AC the most), we already have surplus of solar energy and serious problems (in some places) what to do with that energy (you have to dump it somewhere).
  - itishappy 2y ago
    > you have to dump it somewhere You don't. Solar panels are more than happy to sit idle. "Excess energy" is an economics problem, not a physics one.
    - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
      Why sit idle, when they can cool your house by powering the AC?
      - itishappy 2y ago
        No reason. It's obviously better to use power than waste it, but it's not a "serious problem" if we don't. It doesn't damage panels. It doesn't stress the grid. It doesn't cause additional emissions.
schiffern 2y ago
> AC is not harmful to the planet Scientists who studied and rank climate solutions beg to differ. https://drawdown.org/solutions/refrigerant-management https://drawdown.org/solutions/refrigerant-management https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QCPN6KLB8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QCPN6KLB8 > The ideological framing of the degrowth movement is all around us. If growth (which itself is super vague; growth of what? benefiting whom?) was always a good thing without exception, this complaint would automatically be valid. However we're awash in ideological framing all around us supporting growth, even when growth is—yes Virginia—sometimes detrimental. An ideological counterbalance is desperately needed. Wouldn't it be weird if growth of everything was always a good think in any scenario, forever? :-\ Maybe we should be just slightly more selective and data-driven than that...
wing-_-nuts 2y ago
I mean, AC will literally save lives during the increasingly frequent heat waves of the future. AC is not the problem, making sure the energy that powers it is renewable is the problem. When I move to my next place, I will be installing a solar panel and battery setup sufficient keep the fridge, freezer, and at least one room of the house cool during a heat wave. I don't really care how much it costs.
Angostura 2y ago
Sure, in a world with an excess of carbon-free energy, air-conditioning is not harmful to the planet. In the current reality, where global CO2 emissions continue to rise, yes it is harmful. The ideological framing of ostriches is all around us.
itishappy 2y ago
Except of course they're related: AC uses energy and much of our current energy generation releases carbon. I don't agree with the degrowth framing at all. The article's intro actually suggests growth is expected and desirable: > By one estimate, the number of room-cooling ACs could nearly triple between now and 2050. > These additional units will save lives, make cities liveable and stave off losses in economic productivity. Your framing is interesting too! Is there a name for discussing technology only in the abstract, ignoring it's connection to the real world? Ideological pedantry?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

scheme271 2y ago

The energy source for AC is a big issue but the refrigerant gas in most AC units cause issues for the ozone and for global climate change.

s17tnet 2y ago
Is this still true in 2024? AFIK, modern ( everything after 2010) ACs, pumps and refrigerator use ozone neutral gas like HFC.
- sl-1 2y ago
  It is still true, most common refrigerants still have quite high GWP [1]. Not as bad as in the 70's, but the transition to neutral gasses is not ready yet. And then there is also all the old installed systems still running. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant#Common_refrigerants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant#Common_refrigerant...
  - himinlomax 2y ago
    It says right in the table that propane only has 3.3 times the potential of CO₂. That's in fact quite low for the use.
- hannob 2y ago
  HFCs are amongst the most damaging climate gases. It's a very unfortunate outcome of phasing out CFCs that they have in many instances been replaced by powerful greenhouse gases. HFCs are slowly phased out as well, but there are still a lot of harmful gases out there.
quonn 2y ago
The typically used R32 does not cause any ozone issues. It is a climate gas, but only if it escapes from the pipes which it doesn‘t if properly installed.

herbst 2y ago

When we are actively warming the environment around us. Isn't that bad for our planet in some way? Edit:// serious question. Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know.

itishappy 2y ago
Not really. The Sun radiates about 1000W/m^2 of energy at Earth distances. AC won't hold a candle to that. That's why global warming conversations focus on greenhouses gases that trap the Sun's energy, not industrial processes that release heat.

Tade0 2y ago

Common refrigerants are also potent greenhouse gases. The currently used R32 is equivalent to 675x the CO2, so a typical AC unit will have several tonne equivalents of it inside. That's still an upgrade over its predecessor - R410a, for which the same figure was 2088x. Heat pumps have the same problem, which is why the recently deployed 33MW district heating heat pump in Helsinki uses CO2 as a refrigerant: https://www.man-es.com/company/press-releases/press-details/2024/08/28/man-energy-solutions-to-supply-world-s-largest-air-to-water-heat-pump-for-helsinki-s-district-heating https://www.man-es.com/company/press-releases/press-details/...

quonn 2y ago
It‘s only a problem if the system is not properly installed. In countries with proper regulation and professional certification this is not an issue.
- big-green-man 2y ago
  This is incorrect. Every ounce of that stuff winds up outside eventually. Regulation can only put it off. It's a gas and it has to go somewhere. It's like trying to keep lithium out of landfills.
  - quonn 2y ago
    Please provide a source for this wild claim. Nothing winds up outside, unless it leaks. The gas can and does get reused indefinitely. Additionally and just to put it in perspective, a typical AC Split-Setup contains around 1kg of R32 which would be equivalent to 677 kg of CO2 _if_ it would leak completely over the 20 years of usage (which it doesn‘t). That‘s equivalent of the CO2 contained in 285 liters of gasoline or about driving 3000 kilometers by car (for cars using 7-8 liters). The expected leakage is 1-3 percent. So that‘s around 30 kilometers by car per year. In reality, modern ACs are widely used for heating in winter (I am doing this myself) and help to reduce CO2 emissions compared to heating with oil or gas. edit: I had to edit this twice. Actually the first estimate was correct.

hannob 2y ago

This is irrelevant nitpicking. For decades to come, we won't have 100% clean energy systems everywhere. Even if you power your AC 100% by solar energy, that solar energy won't be used to displace dirty energy elsewhere. Even if you make absolutely sure you have additional solar energy (I don't know how you'd do that), you still have production emissions for the solar panels. For the forseeable future, if you can do X with less energy than before, that's an improvement.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
During calm hot sunny days in the summer (so.. the ones when you need AC the most), we already have surplus of solar energy and serious problems (in some places) what to do with that energy (you have to dump it somewhere).
- itishappy 2y ago
  > you have to dump it somewhere You don't. Solar panels are more than happy to sit idle. "Excess energy" is an economics problem, not a physics one.
  - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    Why sit idle, when they can cool your house by powering the AC?
    - itishappy 2y ago
      No reason. It's obviously better to use power than waste it, but it's not a "serious problem" if we don't. It doesn't damage panels. It doesn't stress the grid. It doesn't cause additional emissions.

schiffern 2y ago

> AC is not harmful to the planet Scientists who studied and rank climate solutions beg to differ. https://drawdown.org/solutions/refrigerant-management https://drawdown.org/solutions/refrigerant-management https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QCPN6KLB8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QCPN6KLB8 > The ideological framing of the degrowth movement is all around us. If growth (which itself is super vague; growth of what? benefiting whom?) was always a good thing without exception, this complaint would automatically be valid. However we're awash in ideological framing all around us supporting growth, even when growth is—yes Virginia—sometimes detrimental. An ideological counterbalance is desperately needed. Wouldn't it be weird if growth of everything was always a good think in any scenario, forever? :-\ Maybe we should be just slightly more selective and data-driven than that...

wing-_-nuts 2y ago

I mean, AC will literally save lives during the increasingly frequent heat waves of the future. AC is not the problem, making sure the energy that powers it is renewable is the problem. When I move to my next place, I will be installing a solar panel and battery setup sufficient keep the fridge, freezer, and at least one room of the house cool during a heat wave. I don't really care how much it costs.

Angostura 2y ago

Sure, in a world with an excess of carbon-free energy, air-conditioning is not harmful to the planet. In the current reality, where global CO2 emissions continue to rise, yes it is harmful. The ideological framing of ostriches is all around us.

itishappy 2y ago

Except of course they're related: AC uses energy and much of our current energy generation releases carbon. I don't agree with the degrowth framing at all. The article's intro actually suggests growth is expected and desirable: > By one estimate, the number of room-cooling ACs could nearly triple between now and 2050. > These additional units will save lives, make cities liveable and stave off losses in economic productivity. Your framing is interesting too! Is there a name for discussing technology only in the abstract, ignoring it's connection to the real world? Ideological pedantry?