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The more I think about the more I feel that this is the wrong solution to the problem. Disclaimer: I'm doing a small open source espresso controller project, ch

The more I think about the more I feel that this is the wrong solution to the problem. Disclaimer: I'm doing a small open source espresso controller project, check it out if you're interested, but it's not ready for prime time yet: https://github.com/variegated-coffee https://github.com/variegated-coffee. My thinking is that this machine appeals mostly to people who already has an espresso machine. It's not particularly technologically advanced. It's a single boiler, an E61 group and a vibratory pump. If you're buying this machine, you're probably replacing a machine at a similar technology level, and that's not really a sustainable choice. A well maintained espresso machine has a lifespan in the range of decades. Many recent innovations in espresso machines is mostly controllers, sensors and actuators. Also better pumps. These are all things that can easily be retrofitted to an older espresso machine. There has been innovation in other areas not easily retrofittable (saturated groups, dual boilers instead of heat-exchangers, to name a few), but this machine doesn't really feature any of those. I strongly believe that in this particular demographic, it's a much better (more sustainable, cheaper and all around more fun) idea to retrofit new and advanced parts to the espresso machine they presumably already have, than to buy a whole new machine. We don't need old espresso machines on landfills. On the off chance that a prospective buyer doesn't already have a similar espresso machine, this isn't too bad of a choice, and the price is decent, but on the other hand, there are a lot of used machines on the market that are looking for a new owner and can be upgraded.

zero_iq 2y ago
It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled. If this was half the price, I might be interested. But if I wanted a coffee maker with open source control, I'd probably just hack an existing cheaper product. And I'm someone who absolutely loves assembling stuff from kits! Heck, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't already got Doom running on a Sage.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled. Exactly. The parent post mentions this being "the wrong solution to the problem", but I don't know what the problem is this product is addressing. E61 machines are well understood and diagrammed with (somewhat) interchangeable parts. If this product appeals to you, you can buy a cheaper/similarly priced machine, take it apart and put it back together yourself.
  - a012 2y ago
    And also branded machine got QC before going to my home, instead I’d not trust myself to do anything related to the boilers
    - everybodyknows 2y ago
      Not my Baratza Vario grinder. First two units had line-hot shorted to ground.
      - bch 2y ago
        Now the big question - was Baratza cool to deal with? I haven’t had too much interaction with them, but I replaced (they sold me) a controller board for my Vario-W for a reasonable price, as well as burrs and the drive. The machines are good for what they are, but their service (what they pride themselves on) is exceptional in my experience.
        everybodyknows 2y ago
        Yes, response was good.
  - drrotmos 2y ago
    Oh, don't get me started on what the problem is :D * Espresso machine electronics are very proprietary. There's basically one manufacturer, no published schematics and very closed firmwares. * That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it. * Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller with the new firmware is your only option. * Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs. There are absolutely exceptions to this, but for 95% of the espresso machines out there, you're definitely not getting the full potential of the hardware.
    - dgacmu 2y ago
- iamwil 2y ago
  Do you have a list of recommendations of kits that you enjoyed assembling?
diego_moita 2y ago
Agree, I am a software and espresso guy. Although I've been regularly fixing my Baratza grinder and Rancilio Silvia for years the fact is that disassembling hardware and tightening screws still looks slightly scary and dangerous. It is always an adventure but not always fun. My fearless limit on hardware DIY is assembling IKEA furniture and cleaning my bike. Beyond that, I'd think twice.
lpasselin 2y ago
I have a 200$ mini machine and would like to upgrade. Can DIY anything. What would you suggest for a maximum budget of 1500$?
- fancyfredbot 2y ago
  Watch this video: https://youtu.be/e0kQ5WqjcU8?si=IQ-BVCU3cp4USqPx https://youtu.be/e0kQ5WqjcU8?si=IQ-BVCU3cp4USqPx
- karolist 2y ago
  Sage/Breville Dual Boiler and do the slayer mod + drip tray mod, you can then pull espresso that rivals any machine out there for a fraction of the cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw The machine is old enough to be well understood with documented mods and fixes, it's dual boiler, triple PID, extreme temp stability, fill from the front, drip tray indicator. I love it. https://home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-mods-and-maintenance-t61421.html https://home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boi...
- ce4 2y ago
  Get a used Rancilio Silvia + do a fully fledged Gaggiuino build. Check this Video comparison (Not a modded Silvia though, but a Gaggia classic which I would not recommended due to its aluminum boiler and the new China manufactured models have a (probably Teflon) coated boiler that likes to shed the coating... just search on reddit). The emphasis in this comparison is on the Gaggiuino mod, which does all the magic (profile based brewing). The underlying base machine is not that important. I would stay away from Sage/Breville, too much non standard parts and lots of plastic for my taste. Decent Espresso vs DIY Gaggiuino build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw Edit: many typos and some rewording
  - polyvisual 2y ago
    I read that Gaggia would replace flaking boilers. Contact your supplier for information.
horacemorace 2y ago
An E61 is the wrong choice. They have fluidic mechanical pressure ramp system. A modern machine ought to have adjustable computerized pressure profiles.
- euroderf 2y ago
  Does this additional complexity do anything bad to reliability ?
  - horacemorace 2y ago
    Yes. E61s are full of springs and an orifice and a valve body that ramps the pressure mechanically. This is not only overly complicated but it exposes the brew water to dissimilar metals and adds a ton of surface area to shit up with rancid coffee oil. A group with a shorter water path is better since we can easily have control over the pressure with a computer.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
frontiersummit 2y ago
I only see power requirements (1300 W) but no mention of voltage or frequency requirements---not even in the user guide. The pricing in € hints that the creators are in 240/1/50-land, and that I'm out-of-luck in the 120/1/60 wastes of North America. It's a shame, because I'm very much the target demographic for a kit like this. One could transform it from 120 V or run it on our 240 V split-phase with an isolation transformer of course, but running the A/C pump 20% faster might be dubious. As an aside, I'm frustrated for the same reason regarding induction cooktops. European units are a fraction of the cost of their American equivalents.
- ce4 2y ago
  You're probably not out-of-luck. Just buy a heat element designed for your grid's voltage. The electronics' internal PSU might already be capable having a wide range input. Besides that, I would absolutely not recommend you buy this. Reason: the parent commenter already hinted in the right direction. The E61 brew group is ancient (invented in 1961 by Faema in Italy, hence the name), it sports 4kg of brass and many moving parts (3 valves, camshaft + lever) and features an analog pre brew chamber. I do restore italian espresso machines for a hobby and have come to the same conclusion as the parent. Even if they're not maintained properly those things are meant to last and can in most cases be resurrected. Most spare parts are readily available and defacto industry standard (eg. The Brasilia ring brew head) and you can retrofit nice electronics easily (eg. clever coffee or the gaggiuino foss controller project featuring pressure transducers, pid controller(s) and a controllable Flow/Pressure rate, profiles, apps and so on). This diy project is imho bland and uses the most ancient brew head available, with unnecessary heat dissipation, long warmup times and probably leaded brass...
- jvdvegt 2y ago
  Fyi: yeah they're Dutch.
zjp 2y ago
Do you have any parts recommendations for Rancilio Silvias?
- drrotmos 2y ago
  My go-to recommendation for single boiler vibratory pump machines has been Gaggiuino. I’m not sure I can still recommend it after their latest source-closing move, but it is absolutely still the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade for single boiler vibratory pump machines.
jcgrillo 2y ago
Personally I really like my Luddite espresso setup--OE hand grinder and La Pavoni lever machine. The tech, pumps, etc really don't do it for me. The only thing I'd change is the electric heating element. I'd like to be able to use it on my boat where electric BTUs are expensive compared to gas. Maybe there's a DIY boiler in my future.
a10c 2y ago
> https://github.com/variegated-coffee https://github.com/variegated-coffee This is your project? If so, thank you for the ESPHome Acaia component. I repurposed it to do brew-by-weight on my Linea Micra!
- drrotmos 2y ago
  It is, and you’re welcome. I’m actually taking a very componentized approach with my new Rust based firmware. Wherever it makes sense, I’m spinning things off into separate crates and will be publishing them (e.g. crates for the ADS124S08 and FDC1004 used in the All-Purpose Espresso Controller. Also, everything is permissively licensed, so feel free to use whatever you want.
RadiozRadioz 2y ago
I rent a place with an espresso machine, but the next place I'm moving to doesn't have one. I absolutely love tinkering and open source. I like coffee, but I'm not crazy about perfection. I value the experience of building it and owning a self-built thing highly. This is perfect for me. There must be dozens of people like me. Dozens!

zero_iq 2y ago

It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled. If this was half the price, I might be interested. But if I wanted a coffee maker with open source control, I'd probably just hack an existing cheaper product. And I'm someone who absolutely loves assembling stuff from kits! Heck, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't already got Doom running on a Sage.

dfxm12 2y ago
It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled. Exactly. The parent post mentions this being "the wrong solution to the problem", but I don't know what the problem is this product is addressing. E61 machines are well understood and diagrammed with (somewhat) interchangeable parts. If this product appeals to you, you can buy a cheaper/similarly priced machine, take it apart and put it back together yourself.
- a012 2y ago
  And also branded machine got QC before going to my home, instead I’d not trust myself to do anything related to the boilers
  - everybodyknows 2y ago
    Not my Baratza Vario grinder. First two units had line-hot shorted to ground.
    - bch 2y ago
      Now the big question - was Baratza cool to deal with? I haven’t had too much interaction with them, but I replaced (they sold me) a controller board for my Vario-W for a reasonable price, as well as burrs and the drive. The machines are good for what they are, but their service (what they pride themselves on) is exceptional in my experience.
      - everybodyknows 2y ago
        Yes, response was good.
- drrotmos 2y ago
  Oh, don't get me started on what the problem is :D * Espresso machine electronics are very proprietary. There's basically one manufacturer, no published schematics and very closed firmwares. * That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it. * Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller with the new firmware is your only option. * Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs. There are absolutely exceptions to this, but for 95% of the espresso machines out there, you're definitely not getting the full potential of the hardware.
  - dgacmu 2y ago
iamwil 2y ago
Do you have a list of recommendations of kits that you enjoyed assembling?

diego_moita 2y ago

Agree, I am a software and espresso guy. Although I've been regularly fixing my Baratza grinder and Rancilio Silvia for years the fact is that disassembling hardware and tightening screws still looks slightly scary and dangerous. It is always an adventure but not always fun. My fearless limit on hardware DIY is assembling IKEA furniture and cleaning my bike. Beyond that, I'd think twice.

lpasselin 2y ago

I have a 200$ mini machine and would like to upgrade. Can DIY anything. What would you suggest for a maximum budget of 1500$?

fancyfredbot 2y ago
Watch this video: https://youtu.be/e0kQ5WqjcU8?si=IQ-BVCU3cp4USqPx https://youtu.be/e0kQ5WqjcU8?si=IQ-BVCU3cp4USqPx
karolist 2y ago
Sage/Breville Dual Boiler and do the slayer mod + drip tray mod, you can then pull espresso that rivals any machine out there for a fraction of the cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw The machine is old enough to be well understood with documented mods and fixes, it's dual boiler, triple PID, extreme temp stability, fill from the front, drip tray indicator. I love it. https://home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-mods-and-maintenance-t61421.html https://home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boi...
ce4 2y ago
Get a used Rancilio Silvia + do a fully fledged Gaggiuino build. Check this Video comparison (Not a modded Silvia though, but a Gaggia classic which I would not recommended due to its aluminum boiler and the new China manufactured models have a (probably Teflon) coated boiler that likes to shed the coating... just search on reddit). The emphasis in this comparison is on the Gaggiuino mod, which does all the magic (profile based brewing). The underlying base machine is not that important. I would stay away from Sage/Breville, too much non standard parts and lots of plastic for my taste. Decent Espresso vs DIY Gaggiuino build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw Edit: many typos and some rewording
- polyvisual 2y ago
  I read that Gaggia would replace flaking boilers. Contact your supplier for information.

horacemorace 2y ago

An E61 is the wrong choice. They have fluidic mechanical pressure ramp system. A modern machine ought to have adjustable computerized pressure profiles.

euroderf 2y ago
Does this additional complexity do anything bad to reliability ?
- horacemorace 2y ago
  Yes. E61s are full of springs and an orifice and a valve body that ramps the pressure mechanically. This is not only overly complicated but it exposes the brew water to dissimilar metals and adds a ton of surface area to shit up with rancid coffee oil. A group with a shorter water path is better since we can easily have control over the pressure with a computer.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

frontiersummit 2y ago

I only see power requirements (1300 W) but no mention of voltage or frequency requirements---not even in the user guide. The pricing in € hints that the creators are in 240/1/50-land, and that I'm out-of-luck in the 120/1/60 wastes of North America. It's a shame, because I'm very much the target demographic for a kit like this. One could transform it from 120 V or run it on our 240 V split-phase with an isolation transformer of course, but running the A/C pump 20% faster might be dubious. As an aside, I'm frustrated for the same reason regarding induction cooktops. European units are a fraction of the cost of their American equivalents.

ce4 2y ago
You're probably not out-of-luck. Just buy a heat element designed for your grid's voltage. The electronics' internal PSU might already be capable having a wide range input. Besides that, I would absolutely not recommend you buy this. Reason: the parent commenter already hinted in the right direction. The E61 brew group is ancient (invented in 1961 by Faema in Italy, hence the name), it sports 4kg of brass and many moving parts (3 valves, camshaft + lever) and features an analog pre brew chamber. I do restore italian espresso machines for a hobby and have come to the same conclusion as the parent. Even if they're not maintained properly those things are meant to last and can in most cases be resurrected. Most spare parts are readily available and defacto industry standard (eg. The Brasilia ring brew head) and you can retrofit nice electronics easily (eg. clever coffee or the gaggiuino foss controller project featuring pressure transducers, pid controller(s) and a controllable Flow/Pressure rate, profiles, apps and so on). This diy project is imho bland and uses the most ancient brew head available, with unnecessary heat dissipation, long warmup times and probably leaded brass...
jvdvegt 2y ago
Fyi: yeah they're Dutch.

zjp 2y ago

Do you have any parts recommendations for Rancilio Silvias?

drrotmos 2y ago
My go-to recommendation for single boiler vibratory pump machines has been Gaggiuino. I’m not sure I can still recommend it after their latest source-closing move, but it is absolutely still the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade for single boiler vibratory pump machines.

jcgrillo 2y ago

Personally I really like my Luddite espresso setup--OE hand grinder and La Pavoni lever machine. The tech, pumps, etc really don't do it for me. The only thing I'd change is the electric heating element. I'd like to be able to use it on my boat where electric BTUs are expensive compared to gas. Maybe there's a DIY boiler in my future.

a10c 2y ago

> https://github.com/variegated-coffee https://github.com/variegated-coffee This is your project? If so, thank you for the ESPHome Acaia component. I repurposed it to do brew-by-weight on my Linea Micra!

drrotmos 2y ago
It is, and you’re welcome. I’m actually taking a very componentized approach with my new Rust based firmware. Wherever it makes sense, I’m spinning things off into separate crates and will be publishing them (e.g. crates for the ADS124S08 and FDC1004 used in the All-Purpose Espresso Controller. Also, everything is permissively licensed, so feel free to use whatever you want.

RadiozRadioz 2y ago

I rent a place with an espresso machine, but the next place I'm moving to doesn't have one. I absolutely love tinkering and open source. I like coffee, but I'm not crazy about perfection. I value the experience of building it and owning a self-built thing highly. This is perfect for me. There must be dozens of people like me. Dozens!