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That's great- but UK has almost highest energy cost in Europe- almost €0.48/kWh. By comparison France (which has consistently invested in nuclear for the past h

by grw_ 2y ago

That's great- but UK has almost highest energy cost in Europe- almost €0.48/kWh. By comparison France (which has consistently invested in nuclear for the past half-century) has almost half that. Until UK has enough energy that it can be priced as in other European nations it will suffer with low competitiveness of energy-intensive industries.

energy123 2y ago
Okay, but why is it expensive? The insinuation of your comment is that wind energy is to blame for high costs, and nuclear is the reason for low costs. But in the US, some of the cheapest energy is in states with wind higher than the UK at 60%, such as Iowa. Perhaps the blame is because the previous Tory government banned onshore wind, the cheapest form of wind energy, a ban only lifted recently under Starmer? I don't know the reason, but it deserves a more serious analysis.
- secondcoming 2y ago
  In the UK energy prices are linked to natural gas prices.
  - cjrp 2y ago
    Yep, it's linked to the most expensive form of generation at that time (which is often gas); known as marginal cost pricing. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-electricity-so-expensive/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-...
- 4thgenrustcoder 2y ago
  [flagged]
- grw_ 2y ago
  My comment wasn't implying that importance of wind in the UK energy mix (or lack of investment in nuclear) is specifically the reason for high costs but I agree that government policy is indeed to blame. As to whether the cause is Tory ban of onshore wind- I'm skeptical. I don't think wind is any cheaper than gas once you include the necessary energy storage capacity- especially when there is huge amounts of gas sitting under the north sea which the new Labour government is planning to ban pumping: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gauravsharma/2024/07/12/sudden-cancellation-of-uk-north-sea-oil-drilling-bids-may-cost-millions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/gauravsharma/2024/07/12/sudden-...
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    Even offshore wind is about twice as cheap as electricity from north sea gas, onshore about twice as cheap again. Also, they're banning looking for new gas, the cost of which is 91% subsidised. > The new 80% Investment Allowance will mean businesses will overall get a 91p tax saving for every £1 they invest – providing them with an additional, immediate incentive to invest. This nearly doubles the tax relief available and means the more investment a firm makes, the less tax they will pay. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-living-support/energy-profits-levy-factsheet-26-may-2022 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-living-su...
- vfclists 2y ago
  Yanis Varoufakis should enlighten you, ie if you can really understand what is going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NicE0-N9ux0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NicE0-N9ux0 TLDR version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q This is why. Prices are set by what electricity retailers think the "market will bear". Unlike suppliers bidding in which the lowest price wins, our electricity prices are set by the highest bidders. It al
  - Arnt 2y ago
    No, they're not set by the highest bidder. They're set by the tenth lowest bidder, except that the number isn't ten. If the number of suppliers needed happens to be ten, then the ten lowest bidders prevail, and the highest bidders lose out. The ten lowest bidders all get the rate offered by the tenth lowest bidder, ie. if a supplier bids at its own cost, it'll likely make a profit (or not get a contract at all).
mattlondon 2y ago
I had the same thought back when the Ukraine war started and gas prices soared. "It's ok" I thought " I am on a tarrif that pays a penny more per kWh to use 100% renewable energy so my price should not be impacted by gas prices". How naive was I - prices obviously shot up. They just charge for the most expensive generation method for all electric usage on the grid from what I can tell, regardless of source. Not sure if this is a "UK problem" in terms of regulations or legacy infrastructure, or if there is some more general economic-theory behind it.
- andrepd 2y ago
  This is a good explanation (ignore the inflammatory/propagandistic title): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q
- mavhc 2y ago
  Why should the wind farm get paid less than the gas power station? They should be paid more for not polluting
  - mattlondon 2y ago
    Because their costs didn't increase was my naive assumption.
    - IshKebab 2y ago
      Prices are affected by supply and demand.
      - vfclists 2y ago
        If there is a genuinely free market.
      - mavhc 2y ago
        But also by the ability to get the supply to the demand, what would be the term? The bandwidth? You're free to make your own electricity grid
davedx 2y ago
Where are you getting that price from? The numbers I can find are roughly half that: https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/regional-energy-prices/ https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/regional-ener... Please post sources.
verzali 2y ago
Where do you get that price from? This report - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9714/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... - from a few days ago says "the average price of electricity 23.4 p/kWh", which is €0.28/kWh. France is generally cheaper, but I can tell you I pay more than €0.20/kWh and probably closer to €0.25 if I actually check my bills...
- rjwilmsi 2y ago
  23.4 p/kWh sounds about right. When prices go up next month (October 2024) I will be paying 30.5p / kWh day and 13.2p / kWh overnight (midnight to 7 am). Those are retail/consumer prices subject to government price cap, I believe commercial customers pay more.
zipy124 2y ago
That's because of the way pricing is set in the UK. If the UK Grid needs 1001 MWs for a day and can source 1000 MWs at £0.05/Kwh from wind and 1MW at £0.50/Kwh from gas, then it pays £0.50/Kwh for both. This gives larger profits to cheaper sources of electricity, therefore hoping that it will accelerate the growth. Whether this works or not is up for debate. TLDR: We pay the most expensive price for all electricity regardless of its cost. Easy explainer: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electricity-pricing https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electricity-pricin...
- oezi 2y ago
  What I don't understand: If solar and wind cost 5-7 cents / kWh, but really is able to charge double or triple, then it should be a very lucrative investment. Shouldn't this lead to massive build-out?
  - rjwilmsi 2y ago
    You are mixing the grid and retail electricity prices. The retail electricity prices are linked to the wholesale gas cost. So consumers pay the same unit rate for electricity regardless of source/time of day etc. (simplification). Average 23p / kWh or so. However, the producers of the electricity get paid the grid spot price. Plus any source-specific government-agreed subsidies (for nuclear, or the strike price for wind auctions). So the typical/average UK grid electricity spot price is around £70 per MWh or 7p per kWh, so while retail is 23p / kWh a solar producer doesn't get paid 23p. What you will also find is that the spot price, while it varies a lot, tends to be higher in the UK late afternoon / early evening, and higher in the winter than the summer, both of which are normally times when solar output is lower.
    - oezi 2y ago
      No, I wasn't talking about retail pricing. I was talking about the spot market prices being determined by the most expensive generator (gas). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_market#Bid-based,_security-constrained,_economic_dispatch_with_nodal_prices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_market#Bid-based,_...
sirk390 2y ago
> France ("consistently invested in nuclear for the past half-century" ). Not really and this is currenctly causing a big problem. France stopped building new reactors after 2002. They only built 1 new generation EPR, which was very late and 6x the cost. Many of the reactors are very old and need to be replaced, but it's difficult to do because of the bad experiences of Flamanville's reactor.
- BenoitP 2y ago
  1 > 0. And most of the cost comes from maintaining engineer's salaries on a single project. If new projects get ordered I'm quite confident costs will move closer to the actual bill of materials, per unit.
  - maigret 2y ago
    There are other EPR projects abroad and most did overshoot costs by more than 5 to $10B and having a decade delay. Meanwhile renewable and storage keep getting cheaper and better at massive speed. Even France adds much more renewable than nuclear capacity right now. Which is a pragmatic approach... Stay skilled in nuclear and keep minimum investment to keep the industry alive but invest mostly in renewable.
happymellon 2y ago
Unfortunately electricity is priced at the most expensive rate. So wind is significantly cheaper to produce than gas, however since gas turbines are still part of the overall grid we pay gas prices for wind power. We have the most expensive electricity, and its either going to require complete replacement of gas produced electric or replacement of all contracts. I think I can have a good guess as to what is most likely to happen first.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  No, the wholesale prices are the most expensive clearing price as otherwise somebody is getting paid less than they agreed and why should anybody participate in a "market" where that happens? Maybe it's easier to see why this is how it works with physical goods in a model rather than fungible electricity and numbers that make no human sense. We want to buy 100 oranges. Alice has 40 oranges, and she's willing to part with them for 60p each Bob has 18 oranges, he wants 56p Carol has 36 oranges, wants 70p each (!) Dave has 60 oranges for only 49p If we insist on having Alice's Oranges and Dave's Oranges but only paying 49p each for them, obviously Alice is going to be very angry about that, we're stealing her oranges, she didn't agree to be paid this little. Also Bob would likely be somewhat angry, he thought we'd buy his cheaper oranges, and instead we just stole Alice's ! So, what we actually do is we take all Dave's oranges, all Bob's oranges, and twenty two of Alice's oranges, and we pay Alice's price for all 100 of them. Now, Dave has a lot of power here, because we need 100 oranges which the other orange suppliers couldn't cover without him, he could set his price as high as he likes. So it's important under a system like this to ensure you have lots of suppliers so that nobody gets as much power as Dave has. Unlike our model orange market, the wholesale electricity market is thirty minutes at a time. So 48 prices per day. So if the wind picks up for a few hours at night, for those hours most likely the clearing price will be set by wind prices, the gas generators stay online (typically better to lose a few quid per MWh to idle at low power than eat the restart cost on those generators although you might want to schedule any maintenance for predicted high wind periods) but the prices are set by wind. In spring that happens fairly often, might even happen for several days in a row. Mid-winter, not so much.
  - happymellon 2y ago
tlocke 2y ago
Comparing electricity costs between countries probably says more about government subsidies than the underlying cost of generation. Nuclear fission is an expensive source of electricity (see the high subsidies for Hinckley C) and so I suspect France's nuclear power is heavily subsidised.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > Nuclear fission is an expensive source of electricity (see the high subsidies for Hinckley C) and so I suspect France's nuclear power is heavily subsidised. There are no subsidies in Ontario, Canada, and nuclear is the second cheapest (CA$ 0.101/kHw) after hydro-electric (6.2¢/kWh); see Table 2: * https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20231019.pdf https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-2023...
  - tlocke 2y ago
    For nuclear, the subsidies are often in insurance and decommissioning and long-term storage of waste. So looking at insurance, it's impossible to fully insure a nuclear power station, and so the state effectively insures it. With long term storage of waste, the material has to be securely stored for about 10,000 years. As far as I know, only Finland is doing this so far. With decommissioning, it always costs more than is set aside, and so the taxpayer gets left to pick up the pieces eventually. With your example of Ontario I don't know how these costs I've outlined will be handled, but if it's anything like the UK the costs will be pushed onto the taxpayer.
    - throw0101c 2y ago
      > With long term storage of waste, the material has to be securely stored for about 10,000 years. As far as I know, only Finland is doing this so far. It has to be stored for 6-10 years for cooling after it is taken out of the reactor. Then after 200-300 years the only way it is dangerous is if you (a) eat it, or (b) grind it up and snort it like cocaine. The '10,000 year stuff' is not very 'hot' and any radiation given off can be blocked by aluminium foil. The dangers over thousands of years is overblown: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 > With your example of Ontario I don't know how these costs I've outlined will be handled, but if it's anything like the UK the costs will be pushed onto the taxpayer. The generation companies will be handling nuclear waste in Canada: > The Act required Canadian electricity generating companies which produce used nuclear fuel to establish a waste management organization to provide recommendations to the Government of Canada on the long-term management of used nuclear fuel. The legislation also required the waste owners to establish segregated trust funds to finance the long-term management of the used fuel. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Management_Organization_(Canada) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Management_Organ...
IshKebab 2y ago
> €0.48/kWh This is way off. It's actually capped at €0.29/kWh at the moment. If you're talking about wholesale prices it's even more way off, and basically the same as France. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-price-cap https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-price-cap https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/electricity-price https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/electricity-pric...
- brnt 2y ago
  I wish I as a consumer could pay wholesale prices! Naturally, there is a whole cottage industry, namely consumer energy market, trying to trick us into overpaying.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Yeah, well in fairness there are other costs... But a lot of it is to pay for the middle men and they mostly exist because of Thatcher. When she privatised electricity they split it into like a dozen different markets (supply, transport, retail, metering, billing, etc.) and coordinating all of those companies is insanely complicated and expensive.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
If the UK adopted regional pricing, Scotland would have the lowest electricity costs in Europe. (And, every region would see cost go down). Notably, the previous Conservative government managed to effectively ban onshore wind power in England, but not in Scotland.
gnfargbl 2y ago
The actual mean price I have paid for electricity this calendar year is £0.14/kWh (€0.17/kWh). This is using Octopus Agile, which is an hourly tariff which tracks the market. I do have an EV and try to charge it at the lowest possible rate (including an occasional negative rate when it's very windy), which brings the average down.

by grw_ 2y ago

energy123 2y ago

Okay, but why is it expensive? The insinuation of your comment is that wind energy is to blame for high costs, and nuclear is the reason for low costs. But in the US, some of the cheapest energy is in states with wind higher than the UK at 60%, such as Iowa. Perhaps the blame is because the previous Tory government banned onshore wind, the cheapest form of wind energy, a ban only lifted recently under Starmer? I don't know the reason, but it deserves a more serious analysis.

secondcoming 2y ago
In the UK energy prices are linked to natural gas prices.
- cjrp 2y ago
  Yep, it's linked to the most expensive form of generation at that time (which is often gas); known as marginal cost pricing. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-electricity-so-expensive/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-...
4thgenrustcoder 2y ago
[flagged]
grw_ 2y ago
My comment wasn't implying that importance of wind in the UK energy mix (or lack of investment in nuclear) is specifically the reason for high costs but I agree that government policy is indeed to blame. As to whether the cause is Tory ban of onshore wind- I'm skeptical. I don't think wind is any cheaper than gas once you include the necessary energy storage capacity- especially when there is huge amounts of gas sitting under the north sea which the new Labour government is planning to ban pumping: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gauravsharma/2024/07/12/sudden-cancellation-of-uk-north-sea-oil-drilling-bids-may-cost-millions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/gauravsharma/2024/07/12/sudden-...
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  Even offshore wind is about twice as cheap as electricity from north sea gas, onshore about twice as cheap again. Also, they're banning looking for new gas, the cost of which is 91% subsidised. > The new 80% Investment Allowance will mean businesses will overall get a 91p tax saving for every £1 they invest – providing them with an additional, immediate incentive to invest. This nearly doubles the tax relief available and means the more investment a firm makes, the less tax they will pay. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-living-support/energy-profits-levy-factsheet-26-may-2022 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-living-su...
vfclists 2y ago
Yanis Varoufakis should enlighten you, ie if you can really understand what is going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NicE0-N9ux0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NicE0-N9ux0 TLDR version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q This is why. Prices are set by what electricity retailers think the "market will bear". Unlike suppliers bidding in which the lowest price wins, our electricity prices are set by the highest bidders. It al
- Arnt 2y ago
  No, they're not set by the highest bidder. They're set by the tenth lowest bidder, except that the number isn't ten. If the number of suppliers needed happens to be ten, then the ten lowest bidders prevail, and the highest bidders lose out. The ten lowest bidders all get the rate offered by the tenth lowest bidder, ie. if a supplier bids at its own cost, it'll likely make a profit (or not get a contract at all).

mattlondon 2y ago

I had the same thought back when the Ukraine war started and gas prices soared. "It's ok" I thought " I am on a tarrif that pays a penny more per kWh to use 100% renewable energy so my price should not be impacted by gas prices". How naive was I - prices obviously shot up. They just charge for the most expensive generation method for all electric usage on the grid from what I can tell, regardless of source. Not sure if this is a "UK problem" in terms of regulations or legacy infrastructure, or if there is some more general economic-theory behind it.

andrepd 2y ago
This is a good explanation (ignore the inflammatory/propagandistic title): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3bo-s_OY4Q
mavhc 2y ago
Why should the wind farm get paid less than the gas power station? They should be paid more for not polluting
- mattlondon 2y ago
  Because their costs didn't increase was my naive assumption.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Prices are affected by supply and demand.
    - vfclists 2y ago
      If there is a genuinely free market.
    - mavhc 2y ago
      But also by the ability to get the supply to the demand, what would be the term? The bandwidth? You're free to make your own electricity grid

davedx 2y ago

Where are you getting that price from? The numbers I can find are roughly half that: https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/regional-energy-prices/ https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/regional-ener... Please post sources.

verzali 2y ago

Where do you get that price from? This report - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9714/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... - from a few days ago says "the average price of electricity 23.4 p/kWh", which is €0.28/kWh. France is generally cheaper, but I can tell you I pay more than €0.20/kWh and probably closer to €0.25 if I actually check my bills...

rjwilmsi 2y ago
23.4 p/kWh sounds about right. When prices go up next month (October 2024) I will be paying 30.5p / kWh day and 13.2p / kWh overnight (midnight to 7 am). Those are retail/consumer prices subject to government price cap, I believe commercial customers pay more.

zipy124 2y ago

That's because of the way pricing is set in the UK. If the UK Grid needs 1001 MWs for a day and can source 1000 MWs at £0.05/Kwh from wind and 1MW at £0.50/Kwh from gas, then it pays £0.50/Kwh for both. This gives larger profits to cheaper sources of electricity, therefore hoping that it will accelerate the growth. Whether this works or not is up for debate. TLDR: We pay the most expensive price for all electricity regardless of its cost. Easy explainer: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electricity-pricing https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electricity-pricin...

oezi 2y ago
What I don't understand: If solar and wind cost 5-7 cents / kWh, but really is able to charge double or triple, then it should be a very lucrative investment. Shouldn't this lead to massive build-out?
- rjwilmsi 2y ago
  You are mixing the grid and retail electricity prices. The retail electricity prices are linked to the wholesale gas cost. So consumers pay the same unit rate for electricity regardless of source/time of day etc. (simplification). Average 23p / kWh or so. However, the producers of the electricity get paid the grid spot price. Plus any source-specific government-agreed subsidies (for nuclear, or the strike price for wind auctions). So the typical/average UK grid electricity spot price is around £70 per MWh or 7p per kWh, so while retail is 23p / kWh a solar producer doesn't get paid 23p. What you will also find is that the spot price, while it varies a lot, tends to be higher in the UK late afternoon / early evening, and higher in the winter than the summer, both of which are normally times when solar output is lower.
  - oezi 2y ago
    No, I wasn't talking about retail pricing. I was talking about the spot market prices being determined by the most expensive generator (gas). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_market#Bid-based,_security-constrained,_economic_dispatch_with_nodal_prices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_market#Bid-based,_...

sirk390 2y ago

> France ("consistently invested in nuclear for the past half-century" ). Not really and this is currenctly causing a big problem. France stopped building new reactors after 2002. They only built 1 new generation EPR, which was very late and 6x the cost. Many of the reactors are very old and need to be replaced, but it's difficult to do because of the bad experiences of Flamanville's reactor.

BenoitP 2y ago
1 > 0. And most of the cost comes from maintaining engineer's salaries on a single project. If new projects get ordered I'm quite confident costs will move closer to the actual bill of materials, per unit.
- maigret 2y ago
  There are other EPR projects abroad and most did overshoot costs by more than 5 to $10B and having a decade delay. Meanwhile renewable and storage keep getting cheaper and better at massive speed. Even France adds much more renewable than nuclear capacity right now. Which is a pragmatic approach... Stay skilled in nuclear and keep minimum investment to keep the industry alive but invest mostly in renewable.

happymellon 2y ago

Unfortunately electricity is priced at the most expensive rate. So wind is significantly cheaper to produce than gas, however since gas turbines are still part of the overall grid we pay gas prices for wind power. We have the most expensive electricity, and its either going to require complete replacement of gas produced electric or replacement of all contracts. I think I can have a good guess as to what is most likely to happen first.

tialaramex 2y ago
No, the wholesale prices are the most expensive clearing price as otherwise somebody is getting paid less than they agreed and why should anybody participate in a "market" where that happens? Maybe it's easier to see why this is how it works with physical goods in a model rather than fungible electricity and numbers that make no human sense. We want to buy 100 oranges. Alice has 40 oranges, and she's willing to part with them for 60p each Bob has 18 oranges, he wants 56p Carol has 36 oranges, wants 70p each (!) Dave has 60 oranges for only 49p If we insist on having Alice's Oranges and Dave's Oranges but only paying 49p each for them, obviously Alice is going to be very angry about that, we're stealing her oranges, she didn't agree to be paid this little. Also Bob would likely be somewhat angry, he thought we'd buy his cheaper oranges, and instead we just stole Alice's ! So, what we actually do is we take all Dave's oranges, all Bob's oranges, and twenty two of Alice's oranges, and we pay Alice's price for all 100 of them. Now, Dave has a lot of power here, because we need 100 oranges which the other orange suppliers couldn't cover without him, he could set his price as high as he likes. So it's important under a system like this to ensure you have lots of suppliers so that nobody gets as much power as Dave has. Unlike our model orange market, the wholesale electricity market is thirty minutes at a time. So 48 prices per day. So if the wind picks up for a few hours at night, for those hours most likely the clearing price will be set by wind prices, the gas generators stay online (typically better to lose a few quid per MWh to idle at low power than eat the restart cost on those generators although you might want to schedule any maintenance for predicted high wind periods) but the prices are set by wind. In spring that happens fairly often, might even happen for several days in a row. Mid-winter, not so much.
- happymellon 2y ago

tlocke 2y ago

Comparing electricity costs between countries probably says more about government subsidies than the underlying cost of generation. Nuclear fission is an expensive source of electricity (see the high subsidies for Hinckley C) and so I suspect France's nuclear power is heavily subsidised.

throw0101c 2y ago
> Nuclear fission is an expensive source of electricity (see the high subsidies for Hinckley C) and so I suspect France's nuclear power is heavily subsidised. There are no subsidies in Ontario, Canada, and nuclear is the second cheapest (CA$ 0.101/kHw) after hydro-electric (6.2¢/kWh); see Table 2: * https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20231019.pdf https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-2023...
- tlocke 2y ago
  For nuclear, the subsidies are often in insurance and decommissioning and long-term storage of waste. So looking at insurance, it's impossible to fully insure a nuclear power station, and so the state effectively insures it. With long term storage of waste, the material has to be securely stored for about 10,000 years. As far as I know, only Finland is doing this so far. With decommissioning, it always costs more than is set aside, and so the taxpayer gets left to pick up the pieces eventually. With your example of Ontario I don't know how these costs I've outlined will be handled, but if it's anything like the UK the costs will be pushed onto the taxpayer.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > With long term storage of waste, the material has to be securely stored for about 10,000 years. As far as I know, only Finland is doing this so far. It has to be stored for 6-10 years for cooling after it is taken out of the reactor. Then after 200-300 years the only way it is dangerous is if you (a) eat it, or (b) grind it up and snort it like cocaine. The '10,000 year stuff' is not very 'hot' and any radiation given off can be blocked by aluminium foil. The dangers over thousands of years is overblown: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 > With your example of Ontario I don't know how these costs I've outlined will be handled, but if it's anything like the UK the costs will be pushed onto the taxpayer. The generation companies will be handling nuclear waste in Canada: > The Act required Canadian electricity generating companies which produce used nuclear fuel to establish a waste management organization to provide recommendations to the Government of Canada on the long-term management of used nuclear fuel. The legislation also required the waste owners to establish segregated trust funds to finance the long-term management of the used fuel. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Management_Organization_(Canada) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Management_Organ...

IshKebab 2y ago

> €0.48/kWh This is way off. It's actually capped at €0.29/kWh at the moment. If you're talking about wholesale prices it's even more way off, and basically the same as France. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-price-cap https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-price-cap https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/electricity-price https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/electricity-pric...

brnt 2y ago
I wish I as a consumer could pay wholesale prices! Naturally, there is a whole cottage industry, namely consumer energy market, trying to trick us into overpaying.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Yeah, well in fairness there are other costs... But a lot of it is to pay for the middle men and they mostly exist because of Thatcher. When she privatised electricity they split it into like a dozen different markets (supply, transport, retail, metering, billing, etc.) and coordinating all of those companies is insanely complicated and expensive.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

If the UK adopted regional pricing, Scotland would have the lowest electricity costs in Europe. (And, every region would see cost go down). Notably, the previous Conservative government managed to effectively ban onshore wind power in England, but not in Scotland.

gnfargbl 2y ago

The actual mean price I have paid for electricity this calendar year is £0.14/kWh (€0.17/kWh). This is using Octopus Agile, which is an hourly tariff which tracks the market. I do have an EV and try to charge it at the lowest possible rate (including an occasional negative rate when it's very windy), which brings the average down.