6 ms·

Actual paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39235810/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39235810/ > Conclusions and relevance: In this cohort study, a history

Actual paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39235810/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39235810/ > Conclusions and relevance: In this cohort study, a history of upper gastrointestinal MD was associated with elevated risk of developing a clinical PD diagnosis. Increased vigilance among patients with MD for future PD risk may be warranted. Associated is the key word. The washington post sensationalizes it to "may begin in the gut"

throwaway920102 2y ago
> MD mucosal damage
- m463 2y ago
  I was curious so I searched. I wonder if other conditions set up parkinsons? (Also disorders might != damage) Causes and Diagnoses of Mucosal Disorders The causes of mucosal disorders are generally bacteria, viruses or fungi, such as yeast. A weakened immune system, stress or dietary deficiencies can make you more prone to a mucosal disorder. Mucosal disorders can develop in a variety of ways: - Candidiasis is often caused by humid conditions, damaged skin or a depressed immune system. - Canker sores are the result of a condition called aphthous stomatitis, and brought on by a weakened immune system, food allergies, viruses, bacteria and poor nutrition. - Herpes is spread through skin-to-skin contact such as kissing and sexual intercourse. It can also be passed via a glass or lip balm of someone who has the herpes simplex virus. It can be contagious even when no lesions are present. https://www.nm.org/conditions-and-care-areas/dermatology/mucosal-disorders/causes-and-diagnoses https://www.nm.org/conditions-and-care-areas/dermatology/muc...
Mistletoe 2y ago
The paper is about the gut-first hypothesis of Parkinson disease (PD), I don’t think the Washington Post sensationalized it that much. And the p-values they find are pretty amazing. P<.001 and still P=.01 after covariate adjustment.
- cpncrunch 2y ago
  It doesnt show direction of causality. Dopamine is also an important gut neurotransmitter.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    and neither will the proposed treatments, and neither will the clinical trials, and neither will the approved drugs
    - cpncrunch 2y ago
      My point is that its plausible there is no direction. It could be dopamine causing both effects.
    - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
      I agree. They know dopamine makes things worse for PD pateints. My Theory: The reason that Dopamine fails is because they do not have low dopamine, but low energy for the dopamine receptor. The dopamine receptors are G Coupled Protein receptors that need GTP to function. So if you are low in the purine GTP then it does not matter how much dopamine you make. Giving these patients dopamine works, but then fails, because it depletes the cells of GTP.
      - jxntb73 2y ago
        speculative.
        FollowingTheDao 2y ago
        My work is not based on conjecture, it’s based on knowledge. So it’s not speculative, it’s a hypothesis. This is how science works.
        jxntb73 2y ago
        Sure. Interesting hypothesis. More research needed. *edit, for the record, for me, as a postdoc, a hypothesis, while more structured than mere speculation, is still an unproven explanation that requires rigorous testing and peer review before it can be considered established scientific knowledge, and thus remains speculative.
ninetyninenine 2y ago
That is not a sensationalization. association indicates possibility of causation. The washington post used the right wording here. While association does not imply causation, you very much need an association in order to establish causation. You actually need establish two associations in order to verify causation, so the existence of one type of association is already an indicator for "may begin in the gut".
- quonn 2y ago
  You can‘t verify causation with two associations either.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    Technically causation can never be verified. But practically you need to associate cause and effect and lack of cause and lack of effect. That is two associations, and in one association the experimenter himself must deliberately influence the experiment. This verifies cause from a practical perspective. From a technical perspective causation was not verified. Because technically you need to verify both effect and lack of effect from one population on the same event and the only way to do that is time travel. We influenced the experiment by creating the causation but by doing that we can no longer know what would’ve happened if we didn’t create the causative precursor and thus we can never truly know if the event actually caused the effect.
    - tim333 2y ago
      Technically sometimes causation can be verified. Say you break your arm in a car crash - it's pretty clear what caused what. I'll give you that with things like gut problems and Parkinson's it's tricker.
      - OutOfHere 2y ago
        > it's pretty clear what caused what. It really isn't. Maybe your arm was osteoporotic or weak from a prior incident, and it broke due to a trivial pressure injury when the ambulance workers were loading you into the ambulance. The point is that it's pretty clear only when it can be mathematically proven, and at all other times it's based on some idea of probability. In the case of this article, a causal association seems quite probable to me.
baxtr 2y ago
I mean it could be either of these three: (1) MD induces PD (2) PD induces MD (3) some other underlying condition causes both MD and PD
- arcticbull 2y ago
  Or (4) two unrelated things that just so happen to be coincident. https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

throwaway920102 2y ago

> MD mucosal damage

m463 2y ago
I was curious so I searched. I wonder if other conditions set up parkinsons? (Also disorders might != damage) Causes and Diagnoses of Mucosal Disorders The causes of mucosal disorders are generally bacteria, viruses or fungi, such as yeast. A weakened immune system, stress or dietary deficiencies can make you more prone to a mucosal disorder. Mucosal disorders can develop in a variety of ways: - Candidiasis is often caused by humid conditions, damaged skin or a depressed immune system. - Canker sores are the result of a condition called aphthous stomatitis, and brought on by a weakened immune system, food allergies, viruses, bacteria and poor nutrition. - Herpes is spread through skin-to-skin contact such as kissing and sexual intercourse. It can also be passed via a glass or lip balm of someone who has the herpes simplex virus. It can be contagious even when no lesions are present. https://www.nm.org/conditions-and-care-areas/dermatology/mucosal-disorders/causes-and-diagnoses https://www.nm.org/conditions-and-care-areas/dermatology/muc...

Mistletoe 2y ago

The paper is about the gut-first hypothesis of Parkinson disease (PD), I don’t think the Washington Post sensationalized it that much. And the p-values they find are pretty amazing. P<.001 and still P=.01 after covariate adjustment.

cpncrunch 2y ago
It doesnt show direction of causality. Dopamine is also an important gut neurotransmitter.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  and neither will the proposed treatments, and neither will the clinical trials, and neither will the approved drugs
  - cpncrunch 2y ago
    My point is that its plausible there is no direction. It could be dopamine causing both effects.
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    I agree. They know dopamine makes things worse for PD pateints. My Theory: The reason that Dopamine fails is because they do not have low dopamine, but low energy for the dopamine receptor. The dopamine receptors are G Coupled Protein receptors that need GTP to function. So if you are low in the purine GTP then it does not matter how much dopamine you make. Giving these patients dopamine works, but then fails, because it depletes the cells of GTP.
    - jxntb73 2y ago
      speculative.
      - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
        My work is not based on conjecture, it’s based on knowledge. So it’s not speculative, it’s a hypothesis. This is how science works.
        jxntb73 2y ago
        Sure. Interesting hypothesis. More research needed. *edit, for the record, for me, as a postdoc, a hypothesis, while more structured than mere speculation, is still an unproven explanation that requires rigorous testing and peer review before it can be considered established scientific knowledge, and thus remains speculative.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

That is not a sensationalization. association indicates possibility of causation. The washington post used the right wording here. While association does not imply causation, you very much need an association in order to establish causation. You actually need establish two associations in order to verify causation, so the existence of one type of association is already an indicator for "may begin in the gut".

quonn 2y ago
You can‘t verify causation with two associations either.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  Technically causation can never be verified. But practically you need to associate cause and effect and lack of cause and lack of effect. That is two associations, and in one association the experimenter himself must deliberately influence the experiment. This verifies cause from a practical perspective. From a technical perspective causation was not verified. Because technically you need to verify both effect and lack of effect from one population on the same event and the only way to do that is time travel. We influenced the experiment by creating the causation but by doing that we can no longer know what would’ve happened if we didn’t create the causative precursor and thus we can never truly know if the event actually caused the effect.
  - tim333 2y ago
    Technically sometimes causation can be verified. Say you break your arm in a car crash - it's pretty clear what caused what. I'll give you that with things like gut problems and Parkinson's it's tricker.
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      > it's pretty clear what caused what. It really isn't. Maybe your arm was osteoporotic or weak from a prior incident, and it broke due to a trivial pressure injury when the ambulance workers were loading you into the ambulance. The point is that it's pretty clear only when it can be mathematically proven, and at all other times it's based on some idea of probability. In the case of this article, a causal association seems quite probable to me.

baxtr 2y ago

I mean it could be either of these three: (1) MD induces PD (2) PD induces MD (3) some other underlying condition causes both MD and PD

arcticbull 2y ago
Or (4) two unrelated things that just so happen to be coincident. https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations