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This doesn't seem to take into account that professional athletes and musicians work very few hours in a year. Imagine if programmers were like NFL players, wo

This doesn't seem to take into account that professional athletes and musicians work very few hours in a year. Imagine if programmers were like NFL players, working for four 15-minute sessions, seventeen times a year.

rrradical 2y ago
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your definition of work. Even if you meant perform- most athletes have to perform continuously outside out of games in order to earn minutes in game. And touring musicians are performing way more hours than you cite. Imagine if programmers were like NFL players, constantly measured on their performance against their peers.
- ychen306 2y ago
  NFL players wouldn’t have time to do drills if their games last 8 hours and they need to play everyday.
  - Qem 2y ago
    I think a great example of the point you're trying to make is taxi drivers and motorsport pilots.
norir 2y ago
I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic or not.
- NegativeK 2y ago
  If you interpret OP's term "work" as "perform on the public stage", then it comes across as non-sarcastic. I don't think they meant to say that NFL players loafs around all year except for a cumulative 17 hours.
  - Jordan_Pelt 2y ago
    Yes, by "work" I meant "do what they are specifically paid to do, i.e., perform in front of an audience.
    - NegativeK 2y ago
      I think it was confusing people because pro sports players are often paid by an org or team that will fire them if they don't show up for the endless hours of training. They also get huge amounts of resources to make that training more effective. Versus, say, a touring rock band that gets a cut of the performance revenue. I don't think there's anyone paying them a multi-year contract salary.
      - maximus-decimus 2y ago
        saying training is work is also confusing, because just doing your work is not training either. I'm kinda angry at the school system for never teaching me about dedicated practice. For the longest time, I did believe practicing something was just doing it over and over.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  I don't think it is. A NFL player is hired to perform well for just a few hours a year, the rest doesn't matter. A live musician needs to play well during the few hours of concert they have each year, what they do when the public is not there doesn't matter. It means all of their job is concentrated in a few hours per year, so they have to be damn good at it. In order to do that, they need training, which is most of their working time. For most other jobs, there is much less time to train, and it doesn't matter as much because what counts is the average performance, not just a few key moments. For programming, the parallel would be competitive programming. A competitive programmer will spend days studying algorithms like no one else, because it will matter for the hour or two of the competition. For typical programmers the loss of productivity for not knowing the algorithms is less than the time spent studying them.
gherkinnn 2y ago
What an odd thing to say. How is practice and training not work?
- ychen306 2y ago
  Training is work but their main “events” are just much shorter than say that of a programmers. Even the longest athletic event like TdF lasts only several weeks. A programmer or lawyer worker 9 to 5 (at a minimum) doesn’t have time after work to practice.
  - Juliate 2y ago
    Practice and training are work.
    - adamnemecek 2y ago
      He separates those from “performance”.
      - Juliate 2y ago
        Yes, but that's still a peculiar separation. Learning, training, practicing, teaching, rehearsing, performing are just several different modalities of (the) work, with distinct proportions depending on the job and the role(s). It's not because one's not in a 9-5 office job that it's not work either. Your plumber, or locksmith, or carpenter, or physician is also often performing for you only a few minutes/hours. You may think you're watching/paying for this performance only, but you're really watching all the experience that goes into this performance, that is the result of their previous studies, training, and practice and other performances. The "difference" with a "typical" office job is that you don't get to have them in the single same place all the time, and watch/see them work through all those modalities, sanctioned by some manager. It's much more open than that. What is amazing is how normalised the "controlling" factory/office work culture has become.
    - gwd 2y ago
      Imagine if you told your boss you were only going to actually write code or investigate bugs from 1pm-5pm on Fridays, and the rest of the week you were going to practice "fundamentals". Your boss would think it completely ridiculous, but it's still a larger ratio of performance to practice / training than a professional musician or athlete.
Der_Einzige 2y ago
With how good WLB is for the intelligent in tech, many of them do perform at about that exact amount per year! Seriously, this is the source of “rest and vest” as a mentality and why some companies, I.e Microsoft, are seen as tech retirement homes. They hire the brilliant lazy. Yes, there really are a lot of FAANG caliber engineers who don’t work much harder than you described. Yes really.

rrradical 2y ago

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your definition of work. Even if you meant perform- most athletes have to perform continuously outside out of games in order to earn minutes in game. And touring musicians are performing way more hours than you cite. Imagine if programmers were like NFL players, constantly measured on their performance against their peers.

ychen306 2y ago
NFL players wouldn’t have time to do drills if their games last 8 hours and they need to play everyday.
- Qem 2y ago
  I think a great example of the point you're trying to make is taxi drivers and motorsport pilots.

norir 2y ago

I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic or not.

NegativeK 2y ago
If you interpret OP's term "work" as "perform on the public stage", then it comes across as non-sarcastic. I don't think they meant to say that NFL players loafs around all year except for a cumulative 17 hours.
- Jordan_Pelt 2y ago
  Yes, by "work" I meant "do what they are specifically paid to do, i.e., perform in front of an audience.
  - NegativeK 2y ago
    I think it was confusing people because pro sports players are often paid by an org or team that will fire them if they don't show up for the endless hours of training. They also get huge amounts of resources to make that training more effective. Versus, say, a touring rock band that gets a cut of the performance revenue. I don't think there's anyone paying them a multi-year contract salary.
    - maximus-decimus 2y ago
      saying training is work is also confusing, because just doing your work is not training either. I'm kinda angry at the school system for never teaching me about dedicated practice. For the longest time, I did believe practicing something was just doing it over and over.
GuB-42 2y ago
I don't think it is. A NFL player is hired to perform well for just a few hours a year, the rest doesn't matter. A live musician needs to play well during the few hours of concert they have each year, what they do when the public is not there doesn't matter. It means all of their job is concentrated in a few hours per year, so they have to be damn good at it. In order to do that, they need training, which is most of their working time. For most other jobs, there is much less time to train, and it doesn't matter as much because what counts is the average performance, not just a few key moments. For programming, the parallel would be competitive programming. A competitive programmer will spend days studying algorithms like no one else, because it will matter for the hour or two of the competition. For typical programmers the loss of productivity for not knowing the algorithms is less than the time spent studying them.

gherkinnn 2y ago

What an odd thing to say. How is practice and training not work?

ychen306 2y ago
Training is work but their main “events” are just much shorter than say that of a programmers. Even the longest athletic event like TdF lasts only several weeks. A programmer or lawyer worker 9 to 5 (at a minimum) doesn’t have time after work to practice.
- Juliate 2y ago
  Practice and training are work.
  - adamnemecek 2y ago
    He separates those from “performance”.
    - Juliate 2y ago
      Yes, but that's still a peculiar separation. Learning, training, practicing, teaching, rehearsing, performing are just several different modalities of (the) work, with distinct proportions depending on the job and the role(s). It's not because one's not in a 9-5 office job that it's not work either. Your plumber, or locksmith, or carpenter, or physician is also often performing for you only a few minutes/hours. You may think you're watching/paying for this performance only, but you're really watching all the experience that goes into this performance, that is the result of their previous studies, training, and practice and other performances. The "difference" with a "typical" office job is that you don't get to have them in the single same place all the time, and watch/see them work through all those modalities, sanctioned by some manager. It's much more open than that. What is amazing is how normalised the "controlling" factory/office work culture has become.
  - gwd 2y ago
    Imagine if you told your boss you were only going to actually write code or investigate bugs from 1pm-5pm on Fridays, and the rest of the week you were going to practice "fundamentals". Your boss would think it completely ridiculous, but it's still a larger ratio of performance to practice / training than a professional musician or athlete.

Der_Einzige 2y ago

With how good WLB is for the intelligent in tech, many of them do perform at about that exact amount per year! Seriously, this is the source of “rest and vest” as a mentality and why some companies, I.e Microsoft, are seen as tech retirement homes. They hire the brilliant lazy. Yes, there really are a lot of FAANG caliber engineers who don’t work much harder than you described. Yes really.