11 ms·

It saddens me the Brasil banned X because of racism, anti-semitism and hate-speech. But X is still not banned in the west. At some point we have to come to thi

It saddens me the Brasil banned X because of racism, anti-semitism and hate-speech. But X is still not banned in the west. At some point we have to come to this realization in the west that absolutism is never the answer. Free speech is good upto certain extent, the way it was at Twitter before the rich and powerful took over. Moreover, it is content moderation and it doesn't have anything to do with free speech.

diogocp 2y ago
> Free speech is good upto certain extent Up to the extent that you agree with it?
- timeon 2y ago
  That seems to be current model for Twitter.
- chomp 2y ago
  Works for free speech absolutist Elon Musk?
- chipdart 2y ago
  > Up to the extent that you agree with it? That's the norm in Elon Musk's Twitter. Since his takeover, content like white supremacy, antisemitism, and industrial state-level propaganda operations from fascist and totalitarian regimes is perfectly ok to publish on that platform. Criticism of Elon Musk or fascist regimes, however, is completely different. Elon Musk's Twitter was also caught hardcoding censorship and throttling of both pro-Ukraine discussions and users who published pro-Ukraine content. Russian bots however have free reign. More importantly, Elon Musk's Twitter is finding itself in trouble in Brasil not because of censorship, but because Elon Musk made it his point to go to great extents to avoid even appointing a legal representative to handle complains of illegal activity. This isn't even about censorship, but complying with basic legal requirements. It's like bitching that having to pay taxes is persecuting based on free speech just because you refuse to even file a form.
- croes 2y ago
  When you want to overthrow the government and a military coup d'état because you don't like the election outcome.
- throwadobe 2y ago
  Up to the extent it doesn't infringe on other people's rights, according to the Brazilian constitution, including the right not to be discriminated against.
tourmalinetaco 2y ago
[flagged]
- croes 2y ago
  [flagged]
dont_forget_me_ 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dont_forget_me_ 2y ago
[flagged]
matheusmoreira 2y ago
It was not banned for racism, antisemitism and hate speech. It was banned for "fake news". As determined by our very own Ministry of Truth. Which is literally headed by the judge-king responsible for this circus. These guys are what happens when xkcd/386 acquires god-king powers. If I were to follow the same logic as these judges, I would call for your comment to be deleted and for your account to be suspended. After all, you committed the crime of spreading "disinformation" and "misinformation". You were wrong on the internet. Rejoice, for I do not agree with their logic. You can be wrong on the internet all you want, and I will not call for your censorship. For I believe that is a fundamentally immoral thing to do.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > It was not banned for racism, antisemitism and hate speech. It was banned for "fake news". Not even that. Brasil requires media companies to appoint legal representatives to handle complains of illegal activity, and instead of complying with the law Elon Musk opted to pull the company out of Brasil. The funny thing about this shit show was that Twitter's legal representatives were actually complying with the law, but Elon Musk himself was contradicting and undercutting Twitter's representatives in Brasil. Until he simply pulled out of the company from the country, as if that was some kind of legal gotcha. Except that Brasil doesn't fuck around and it's legislation recognizes that there are always real flesh-and-bone people behind corporate structures, this the judge applying the legal consequences of Elon Musk's decisions to Elon Musk's property in Brasil such as Starlink.
  - hexage1814 2y ago
    > Brasil requires media companies to appoint legal representatives to handle complains of illegal activity If that was the case all millions of sites that operate in Brazil, without having legal representatives in the country, would have to be blocked, which doesn't happen. The truth here is that this Supreme Court "judge", which is more like a de facto dictator at this point, wanted essentially a hostage. Someone who he could jailed to blackmail Musk – as Moraes threaten to do with the previous representative, which was the reason for why Musk shutdown X operation in the country . It's that simple. Them going after Starlink, a totally different legal entity with different investors only proves this mafia-like style and how much of banana republic the whole country became, with zero legal certainty. You are talking about something you really don't understand, such was what is happening in the country. Nobody outside Brazil is taking the decisions of this judge serious. Not even Interpol, which denied countless Red Notice alerts that this "judge" tried to issue, such as when he tried (and failed) to go after exiled journalist Allan dos Santos living in the USA and Oswaldo Eustáquio living in Spain. https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2021/11/interpol-segura-inclusao-de-bolsonaristas-de-lista-de-procurados-de-forma-inedita.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2021/11/interpol-segura-... https://revistaoeste.com/brasil/pf-nao-inclui-oswaldo-eustaquio-na-lista-de-foragidos-da-interpol/ https://revistaoeste.com/brasil/pf-nao-inclui-oswaldo-eustaq... Again, you are really talking about something you have absolutely no idea.
Gud 2y ago
You can’t be so naive that you think this has anything to do with the reasons you listed. The government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government. Unfortunately Brazil is barely a democracy and it’s infested with little potentates.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > The government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government. This baseless personal assertion does not pass the smell test. I'm going to explain to you why. Elon Musk's Twitter is happily censoring opposition of totalitarian dictatorships such as Turkey's Erdogan regime, and the only remark that Elon Musk published regarding censoring Turk opposition parties is that Elon Musk's Twitter would risk being removed from Turkey. Elon Musk, when he caved to Erdogan's demands to censor his opposition, famously said > “Did your brain fall out of your head, Yglesias? The choice is have Twitter throttled in its entirety or limit access to some tweets. Which one do you want?” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors-turkey-election-erdogan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors... So for Turkey's totalitarian dictatorship Elon Musk finds it acceptable to censor opposition by arguing bullshit like "either we show some content or no content", but for Brasil's democratic regime, which barely managed to fend off a fascist military coup, when they request Elon Musk's Twitter to appoint a legal representative to handle requests... That's suddenly unacceptable? Bullshit.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - fluoridation 2y ago
    The statement you are replying to is "the government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government." Why are you talking about what Musk did? What does one thing have to do with the other?
- croes 2y ago
  Criticizing? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_atta... It's a bit more, isn't it?
chipdart 2y ago
> It saddens me the Brasil banned X because of racism, anti-semitism and hate-speech. But X is still not banned in the west. From what I've read, that was not exactly what's happening with Elon Musk's Twitter in Brasil. From what I've gathered, Brasil informed Elon Musk's Twitter that in order to comply with Brasil's law regarding disinformation, libel, and propaganda, they had to appoint a legal representative to be contacted by Brasil's judicial system to address reports of illegal activity. In response, Elon Musk basically ordered Twitter to dissolve all of its corporate presence in Brasil to retaliate against the demand, thinking that without a legal presence in the country that Twitter would magically become immune to Brasil's jurisdiction. Except that Brasil's judicial system does have some tools and the means to prosecute uncooperative entities, particularly private individuals who hide behind corporate structures. Consequently, Brasil not only blocked Elon Musk's Twitter from Brasil due to Elon Musk's purposely uncooperative attitude but also has the legal means to go after the private individuals behind the decision to antagonize Brasil. Consequently, they enforced the consequences of Elon Musk's actions to Elon Musk's property in Brasil, such as Starlink. Overall, this case is only orthogonally related to free speech. At it's core there's only one thing: Elon Musk making ill-advised decisions (reportedly against legal advise from his own legal representatives and in opposition to the actions of his legal representatives) and is now fabricating stories to distract people from the fact that all he is experiencing is the consequences of his own actions, which would be extremely easily avoided if he just listened to his own lawyers.
- d0100 2y ago
  You are ignoring the lead-up to this situation, where the judge is overwriting the law because he and his peers decided they are above it because they are the Supreme justices
  - a_victorp 2y ago
    Where did you get these "facts"? From Elon's tweets?
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > You are ignoring the lead-up to this situation, (...) I am not ignoring anything. The fact is that Brasil has laws to fight disinformation and libel, and those laws are being enforced. Your personal opinion also glances over the fact that Brasil was recently subjected to a coup attempt to drive the country into a fascist dictatorship, heavily pushed by a massive disinformation campaign in social media services like Elon Musk's Twitter. What you are trying to glance over is the fact that none of this issue is related to free speech. Elon Musk tried to avoid complying with a nation's laws with a ill-advised stunt of pulling Twitter's corporate presence from Brasil. As expected from any jurisdiction in the world, not cooperating with the judicial system bears consequences. To drive the point home, I stress the fact that Elon Musk did far worse to support fascist and authoritarian dictatorships attacking free speech, such as his support for Erdogan's regime censoring opposition and non-supoortive posts during the last sham elections. For that, Elon Musk's reaction was claiming that either some messages were boosted or all of them were boosted, and he claimed it's better to have some (only supporting a dictator) than none. But for Brasil, the need to appoint a mere legal representative to process requests was now deemed too much? And enough to pull a dying company from a +200M market? It doesn't pass the smell test.
chucke1992 2y ago
> Free speech is good upto certain extent Until you own speech is banned right? We are the "good ones" after all.
- croes 2y ago
  Until your government is overthrown by the military in a coup d'état. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_atta...
srackey 2y ago
[flagged]
mensetmanusman 2y ago
We would have to ban the iPhone then.
dartharva 2y ago
[flagged]

diogocp 2y ago

> Free speech is good upto certain extent Up to the extent that you agree with it?

timeon 2y ago
That seems to be current model for Twitter.
chomp 2y ago
Works for free speech absolutist Elon Musk?
chipdart 2y ago
> Up to the extent that you agree with it? That's the norm in Elon Musk's Twitter. Since his takeover, content like white supremacy, antisemitism, and industrial state-level propaganda operations from fascist and totalitarian regimes is perfectly ok to publish on that platform. Criticism of Elon Musk or fascist regimes, however, is completely different. Elon Musk's Twitter was also caught hardcoding censorship and throttling of both pro-Ukraine discussions and users who published pro-Ukraine content. Russian bots however have free reign. More importantly, Elon Musk's Twitter is finding itself in trouble in Brasil not because of censorship, but because Elon Musk made it his point to go to great extents to avoid even appointing a legal representative to handle complains of illegal activity. This isn't even about censorship, but complying with basic legal requirements. It's like bitching that having to pay taxes is persecuting based on free speech just because you refuse to even file a form.
croes 2y ago
When you want to overthrow the government and a military coup d'état because you don't like the election outcome.
throwadobe 2y ago
Up to the extent it doesn't infringe on other people's rights, according to the Brazilian constitution, including the right not to be discriminated against.

tourmalinetaco 2y ago

[flagged]

croes 2y ago
[flagged]

dont_forget_me_ 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dont_forget_me_ 2y ago

[flagged]

matheusmoreira 2y ago

It was not banned for racism, antisemitism and hate speech. It was banned for "fake news". As determined by our very own Ministry of Truth. Which is literally headed by the judge-king responsible for this circus. These guys are what happens when xkcd/386 acquires god-king powers. If I were to follow the same logic as these judges, I would call for your comment to be deleted and for your account to be suspended. After all, you committed the crime of spreading "disinformation" and "misinformation". You were wrong on the internet. Rejoice, for I do not agree with their logic. You can be wrong on the internet all you want, and I will not call for your censorship. For I believe that is a fundamentally immoral thing to do.

chipdart 2y ago
> It was not banned for racism, antisemitism and hate speech. It was banned for "fake news". Not even that. Brasil requires media companies to appoint legal representatives to handle complains of illegal activity, and instead of complying with the law Elon Musk opted to pull the company out of Brasil. The funny thing about this shit show was that Twitter's legal representatives were actually complying with the law, but Elon Musk himself was contradicting and undercutting Twitter's representatives in Brasil. Until he simply pulled out of the company from the country, as if that was some kind of legal gotcha. Except that Brasil doesn't fuck around and it's legislation recognizes that there are always real flesh-and-bone people behind corporate structures, this the judge applying the legal consequences of Elon Musk's decisions to Elon Musk's property in Brasil such as Starlink.
- hexage1814 2y ago
  > Brasil requires media companies to appoint legal representatives to handle complains of illegal activity If that was the case all millions of sites that operate in Brazil, without having legal representatives in the country, would have to be blocked, which doesn't happen. The truth here is that this Supreme Court "judge", which is more like a de facto dictator at this point, wanted essentially a hostage. Someone who he could jailed to blackmail Musk – as Moraes threaten to do with the previous representative, which was the reason for why Musk shutdown X operation in the country . It's that simple. Them going after Starlink, a totally different legal entity with different investors only proves this mafia-like style and how much of banana republic the whole country became, with zero legal certainty. You are talking about something you really don't understand, such was what is happening in the country. Nobody outside Brazil is taking the decisions of this judge serious. Not even Interpol, which denied countless Red Notice alerts that this "judge" tried to issue, such as when he tried (and failed) to go after exiled journalist Allan dos Santos living in the USA and Oswaldo Eustáquio living in Spain. https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2021/11/interpol-segura-inclusao-de-bolsonaristas-de-lista-de-procurados-de-forma-inedita.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2021/11/interpol-segura-... https://revistaoeste.com/brasil/pf-nao-inclui-oswaldo-eustaquio-na-lista-de-foragidos-da-interpol/ https://revistaoeste.com/brasil/pf-nao-inclui-oswaldo-eustaq... Again, you are really talking about something you have absolutely no idea.

Gud 2y ago

You can’t be so naive that you think this has anything to do with the reasons you listed. The government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government. Unfortunately Brazil is barely a democracy and it’s infested with little potentates.

chipdart 2y ago
> The government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government. This baseless personal assertion does not pass the smell test. I'm going to explain to you why. Elon Musk's Twitter is happily censoring opposition of totalitarian dictatorships such as Turkey's Erdogan regime, and the only remark that Elon Musk published regarding censoring Turk opposition parties is that Elon Musk's Twitter would risk being removed from Turkey. Elon Musk, when he caved to Erdogan's demands to censor his opposition, famously said > “Did your brain fall out of your head, Yglesias? The choice is have Twitter throttled in its entirety or limit access to some tweets. Which one do you want?” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors-turkey-election-erdogan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors... So for Turkey's totalitarian dictatorship Elon Musk finds it acceptable to censor opposition by arguing bullshit like "either we show some content or no content", but for Brasil's democratic regime, which barely managed to fend off a fascist military coup, when they request Elon Musk's Twitter to appoint a legal representative to handle requests... That's suddenly unacceptable? Bullshit.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- fluoridation 2y ago
  The statement you are replying to is "the government in Brazil does not like X because users are critizing the government." Why are you talking about what Musk did? What does one thing have to do with the other?
croes 2y ago
Criticizing? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_atta... It's a bit more, isn't it?

chipdart 2y ago

> It saddens me the Brasil banned X because of racism, anti-semitism and hate-speech. But X is still not banned in the west. From what I've read, that was not exactly what's happening with Elon Musk's Twitter in Brasil. From what I've gathered, Brasil informed Elon Musk's Twitter that in order to comply with Brasil's law regarding disinformation, libel, and propaganda, they had to appoint a legal representative to be contacted by Brasil's judicial system to address reports of illegal activity. In response, Elon Musk basically ordered Twitter to dissolve all of its corporate presence in Brasil to retaliate against the demand, thinking that without a legal presence in the country that Twitter would magically become immune to Brasil's jurisdiction. Except that Brasil's judicial system does have some tools and the means to prosecute uncooperative entities, particularly private individuals who hide behind corporate structures. Consequently, Brasil not only blocked Elon Musk's Twitter from Brasil due to Elon Musk's purposely uncooperative attitude but also has the legal means to go after the private individuals behind the decision to antagonize Brasil. Consequently, they enforced the consequences of Elon Musk's actions to Elon Musk's property in Brasil, such as Starlink. Overall, this case is only orthogonally related to free speech. At it's core there's only one thing: Elon Musk making ill-advised decisions (reportedly against legal advise from his own legal representatives and in opposition to the actions of his legal representatives) and is now fabricating stories to distract people from the fact that all he is experiencing is the consequences of his own actions, which would be extremely easily avoided if he just listened to his own lawyers.

d0100 2y ago
You are ignoring the lead-up to this situation, where the judge is overwriting the law because he and his peers decided they are above it because they are the Supreme justices
- a_victorp 2y ago
  Where did you get these "facts"? From Elon's tweets?
- chipdart 2y ago
  > You are ignoring the lead-up to this situation, (...) I am not ignoring anything. The fact is that Brasil has laws to fight disinformation and libel, and those laws are being enforced. Your personal opinion also glances over the fact that Brasil was recently subjected to a coup attempt to drive the country into a fascist dictatorship, heavily pushed by a massive disinformation campaign in social media services like Elon Musk's Twitter. What you are trying to glance over is the fact that none of this issue is related to free speech. Elon Musk tried to avoid complying with a nation's laws with a ill-advised stunt of pulling Twitter's corporate presence from Brasil. As expected from any jurisdiction in the world, not cooperating with the judicial system bears consequences. To drive the point home, I stress the fact that Elon Musk did far worse to support fascist and authoritarian dictatorships attacking free speech, such as his support for Erdogan's regime censoring opposition and non-supoortive posts during the last sham elections. For that, Elon Musk's reaction was claiming that either some messages were boosted or all of them were boosted, and he claimed it's better to have some (only supporting a dictator) than none. But for Brasil, the need to appoint a mere legal representative to process requests was now deemed too much? And enough to pull a dying company from a +200M market? It doesn't pass the smell test.

chucke1992 2y ago

> Free speech is good upto certain extent Until you own speech is banned right? We are the "good ones" after all.

croes 2y ago
Until your government is overthrown by the military in a coup d'état. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Brazilian_Congress_atta...

srackey 2y ago

[flagged]

mensetmanusman 2y ago

We would have to ban the iPhone then.

dartharva 2y ago

[flagged]