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Off topic, but eureka moments are my favorite go-to evidence for the absence of free will. No one chooses to have a eureka moment. They just arrive. And not jus

Off topic, but eureka moments are my favorite go-to evidence for the absence of free will. No one chooses to have a eureka moment. They just arrive. And not just those moments, but every thought in every moment. They all just arrive, none are choosen.

futuramaconarma 2y ago
That's not evidence But I agree there's no free will and anybody who believes it also believes in magic and god
- mettamage 2y ago
  I experience having mo free will whenever I am in the break of a meditation retreat. During those breaks it’s sometimes quite easy to observe my thoughts, given that I focus 10 hours per day on making my internal chatter very very quiet. The most fascinating thing to me is how subtle body sensations lead to thoughts and vice versa.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  People who disbelieve in free will are often not educated in the fact that the laws of physics don’t include explanation of most of what is observed and clearly lack in the area of the existence of mind, and are therefore extremely incomplete. Also, it’s impossible to disprove the existence of free will because it requires will to make a conclusion like that.
  - Vecr 2y ago
    Why? A robot should be able to disprove free will by following the rules of correct reasoning, if such a thing is relatively easy, i.e. you would expect humans to ever solve it.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    This is just a free will version of "god-of-the-gaps", where you can shovel the basis of any unknown into the gaps of scientific understanding. We know far more about physics and the mind than we did 100 years ago, and the boundaries for free will to exist in have done nothing but shrink. Not even leaving a mark or hint behind. Free will is much closer to leprechauns (we still haven't mapped every forest!) on the truth spectrum than it is to cancer cures or fusion energy.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      I would believe you, but you had no choice but to output that information, so it’s noise :)
      - maxdoop 2y ago
        Choice is different than free will. We have will, but it is not free. We will make choices.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        You can’t make choices without will, choices are made.
        anthk 2y ago
        Your brain already did the choice for you before you even realized.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        So the brain has a will?
  - NemoNobody 2y ago
    You haven't thought about this enough. Make it small so it's understandable - say any game involving choice. One has free will within the predetermined set of conditions of the game. A choice to buy a property or not in Monopoly seems like free will but it isn't really. Life is the same. Considering that we as human beings don't get to decide what exactly we remember, recall, when we recall or how much we recall - that is memory. What we remember and what we forget. I point this out because it's not a conscious activity but also determines actions, greatly so even. In the Monopoly example perhaps a property is bought bc its a favorite color or they remember winning before with it or its the one they kno their cousin wants. Whatever the personal reasons, there are reasons - nobody plays Monopoly with all logic and reason. So we have limited circumstantial choices and predetermined biased assessments of those choices - both beyond our control. What is free will in that context?
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      Complexity is unbounded, so the discussion around free will probably makes more sense on the opposite end of the choice spectrum. We have a countably infinite number of choices (due to thermodynamic energy limits) to make even within a framework of quantum mechanics, where electrons can only have discrete energy levels (limited number of ‘choices’). Choosing meaning from the infinite looks more like free will than deciding heads or tails.
- istultus 2y ago
  Beyond that logical tantrum easily refuted - I'm 52% on free will, say a tenth of a bip on god and magic: At least in Judaism there is sizable chunk of believers who believe in God and that everything is God's will and thus there is no free will - Hashgachah Pratit - so at the very least only one direction of your argument could hold, though I don't understand why it's a coherent idea to begin with. (also, which particular audience are you trying to insult with that categorical statement and why?)
- dsizzle 2y ago
  You should read about compatibilism, e.g. the work of Daniel Dennett, which argues that the parts of free will worth wanting are consistent with determinism. He definitely doesn't believe in magic or god!
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Because instincts exist, there is no free will. (Although free will is required to make any conclusion about the presence or absence of free will, so the point is moot).
- thrance 2y ago
  Grandparent's argument is ridiculous but so is yours, how is free will required to make a conclusion on the existence of free will ?
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Making any conclusion requires the use of a will, otherwise it’s just a coin flip, and random decision aren’t part of logical frameworks.
    - Vecr 2y ago
      Yes they are, look at the derandomization program in computational complexity, or if you're slightly more forgiving with your definition of logic, then look at mixed strategies and Monte-Carlo algorithms.
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        *only random decisions can’t come to a conclusion. That would mean a random proof of free will is just as valid :) Definitely random generators can be a subset of logic, not the superset.
        Vecr 2y ago
        I don't know what you're saying. A derandomized Las Vegas algorithm is deterministic for a given seed, so far so good. From there I'm lost.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Eureka moments, is the subconscious assembling conclusions and deductions and presenting them to you. That the subconscious is engaged and busy, is fed with information to build stuff from and rewarded for its actions - thus repeats it, is all conscious choices, thus subject to free will. The horse does pull of a record and the rider barely had to steer, is not a indicator of wild horses.
- pwm 2y ago
  One thing I've discovered and utilised from a relatively early age was synergising the difference in how my conscious and subconscious processes information. It's really just the usual advice of "when stuck, go for a walk" but in my experience it's a very useful tool when done mindfully.
cameldrv 2y ago
I don’t think it rules out free will, but perhaps free will is more limited. There is a self reflective part of your mind, probably physically located in your frontal lobe, but there are also many other parts of your mind and brain that do important things, but aren’t self reflective. I’ve come to think of my brain as a committee. There are many things I can do, like walk or even do a mathematical proof, that I cannot really describe the process. We see in things like addiction that the self reflective mind also does not always (or maybe even often) have ultimate control over behavior. Kahenaman and Gallwey talk about this as System 1/2 and Self 1/2. Julian Jaynes even thinks that people used to have complete other simulated people inside of themselves that they called gods, and this still happens to people with Schizophrenia.
sgt101 2y ago
I choose thoughts - I can conjour images, or scenes into my mind. I can choose not to think about things. In fact, this is a proof of free will. If you were compelled to consider the consequences of your actions then evil would be impossible. The fact that we see evil means that people can choose not to think about what will happen when they do evil things.
- maxdoop 2y ago
  What will your next thought be? Think of a movie — why did that movie arise in your mind? It’s an illusion but that doesn’t negate we must operate as though our will is free!
  - drdeca 2y ago
    What do you mean by “as though our will is free” when you say that “we must operate as though our will is free”?
    - sgt101 2y ago
      This is at the heart of it.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  Not really, the decision to choose a particular thought first comes into your mind the way above comment says.
  - sgt101 2y ago
    Really - to state otherwise is just a play on words. Think carefully. Think friend, think.
- tasty_freeze 2y ago
  As the famous quote goes, you are free to choose, but you aren't free to choose what you choose. Unpacking: assuming you aren't coerced, you choose one of N options "freely". But all the factors (many inscrutable) that contribute to the ultimate choice are predetermined from your biology to all your lived experience (which ultimately is encoded in your brain in some manner). Sam Harris has a short (7 minute) video with a demonstration of this. The demonstration starts about 1:20 in, but it is worth watching the minute setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA
ck2 2y ago
You can still have free will with "locked in" events. Time is a fourth dimension but think of everything that has and everything that will happen as a three dimensional cube for a moment. Now step outside the cube and observe everything that has and ever will happen. Does that mean there was no free will because it's all observable and was "locked in" ? No of course not. It's a unique box of time. If you look around there could be another unique box of time with different free will choices being made inside it. (btw this is one way they attempt to theorize an excuse for quantum entanglement, it "knows" the outcome already by also existing outside the box)
api 2y ago
The choice is upstream. You choose what to focus on, which gives standing orders to your brain, which eventually leads to eureka moments. If you choose to focus entirely on baking you'll have eureka moments about that.
dsizzle 2y ago
Why would you assume it's all or nothing? Will (free or otherwise) implies something like effort and clearly we're not constantly applying effort. Believing in free will doesn't mean believing that everything results from it.
- fijiaarone 2y ago
  Usually people that don’t being in thought can’t think, so from their limited perspective, their arguments kinda make sense. It’s like white swans. If you’ve never seen a bird, you might think that nobody has ever seen a white swan.
jll29 2y ago
This is a bit like saying program counters don't exist because a program's control flow can be changed by interrupts.
d0mine 2y ago
The presence of subconscious processes doesn't deny the existence of conscious ones. Focus/diffuses modes are widely known/accepted. You can direct the unconscious thoughts too. If I spend some time intensely trying to solve a problem on the conscious level, often I get new ideas on how to approach it in the morning or during a long run (without thinking about it on the conscious level). --- Unrelated: the discussions about free will often miss that the existence of atoms doesn't imply that a wooden table doesn't exist: they are on different levels of abstraction--no point in comparing.
lukan 2y ago
One can want to have eureka moments. And than one thinks hard. And then one fine day "eureka!" But they do not happen on their own. It takes effort to make them possible, even though there is no guaruantee that they will come (Dead ends exists).
exe34 2y ago
i don't believe in free will either, but this isn't very convincing evidence. eureka moments don't hit like bird poo in the middle of the street. they hit people who have spent months-decades thinking about the problem. a more convincing argument is that they didn't have a choice in choosing that ball of yarn to pick at - mostly it comes along as an irrepressible urge to figure it out.

futuramaconarma 2y ago

That's not evidence But I agree there's no free will and anybody who believes it also believes in magic and god

mettamage 2y ago
I experience having mo free will whenever I am in the break of a meditation retreat. During those breaks it’s sometimes quite easy to observe my thoughts, given that I focus 10 hours per day on making my internal chatter very very quiet. The most fascinating thing to me is how subtle body sensations lead to thoughts and vice versa.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
People who disbelieve in free will are often not educated in the fact that the laws of physics don’t include explanation of most of what is observed and clearly lack in the area of the existence of mind, and are therefore extremely incomplete. Also, it’s impossible to disprove the existence of free will because it requires will to make a conclusion like that.
- Vecr 2y ago
  Why? A robot should be able to disprove free will by following the rules of correct reasoning, if such a thing is relatively easy, i.e. you would expect humans to ever solve it.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  This is just a free will version of "god-of-the-gaps", where you can shovel the basis of any unknown into the gaps of scientific understanding. We know far more about physics and the mind than we did 100 years ago, and the boundaries for free will to exist in have done nothing but shrink. Not even leaving a mark or hint behind. Free will is much closer to leprechauns (we still haven't mapped every forest!) on the truth spectrum than it is to cancer cures or fusion energy.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    I would believe you, but you had no choice but to output that information, so it’s noise :)
    - maxdoop 2y ago
      Choice is different than free will. We have will, but it is not free. We will make choices.
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        You can’t make choices without will, choices are made.
        anthk 2y ago
        Your brain already did the choice for you before you even realized.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        So the brain has a will?
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  You haven't thought about this enough. Make it small so it's understandable - say any game involving choice. One has free will within the predetermined set of conditions of the game. A choice to buy a property or not in Monopoly seems like free will but it isn't really. Life is the same. Considering that we as human beings don't get to decide what exactly we remember, recall, when we recall or how much we recall - that is memory. What we remember and what we forget. I point this out because it's not a conscious activity but also determines actions, greatly so even. In the Monopoly example perhaps a property is bought bc its a favorite color or they remember winning before with it or its the one they kno their cousin wants. Whatever the personal reasons, there are reasons - nobody plays Monopoly with all logic and reason. So we have limited circumstantial choices and predetermined biased assessments of those choices - both beyond our control. What is free will in that context?
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Complexity is unbounded, so the discussion around free will probably makes more sense on the opposite end of the choice spectrum. We have a countably infinite number of choices (due to thermodynamic energy limits) to make even within a framework of quantum mechanics, where electrons can only have discrete energy levels (limited number of ‘choices’). Choosing meaning from the infinite looks more like free will than deciding heads or tails.
istultus 2y ago
Beyond that logical tantrum easily refuted - I'm 52% on free will, say a tenth of a bip on god and magic: At least in Judaism there is sizable chunk of believers who believe in God and that everything is God's will and thus there is no free will - Hashgachah Pratit - so at the very least only one direction of your argument could hold, though I don't understand why it's a coherent idea to begin with. (also, which particular audience are you trying to insult with that categorical statement and why?)
dsizzle 2y ago
You should read about compatibilism, e.g. the work of Daniel Dennett, which argues that the parts of free will worth wanting are consistent with determinism. He definitely doesn't believe in magic or god!

mensetmanusman 2y ago

Because instincts exist, there is no free will. (Although free will is required to make any conclusion about the presence or absence of free will, so the point is moot).

thrance 2y ago
Grandparent's argument is ridiculous but so is yours, how is free will required to make a conclusion on the existence of free will ?
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Making any conclusion requires the use of a will, otherwise it’s just a coin flip, and random decision aren’t part of logical frameworks.
  - Vecr 2y ago
    Yes they are, look at the derandomization program in computational complexity, or if you're slightly more forgiving with your definition of logic, then look at mixed strategies and Monte-Carlo algorithms.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      *only random decisions can’t come to a conclusion. That would mean a random proof of free will is just as valid :) Definitely random generators can be a subset of logic, not the superset.
      - Vecr 2y ago
        I don't know what you're saying. A derandomized Las Vegas algorithm is deterministic for a given seed, so far so good. From there I'm lost.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

Eureka moments, is the subconscious assembling conclusions and deductions and presenting them to you. That the subconscious is engaged and busy, is fed with information to build stuff from and rewarded for its actions - thus repeats it, is all conscious choices, thus subject to free will. The horse does pull of a record and the rider barely had to steer, is not a indicator of wild horses.

pwm 2y ago
One thing I've discovered and utilised from a relatively early age was synergising the difference in how my conscious and subconscious processes information. It's really just the usual advice of "when stuck, go for a walk" but in my experience it's a very useful tool when done mindfully.

cameldrv 2y ago

I don’t think it rules out free will, but perhaps free will is more limited. There is a self reflective part of your mind, probably physically located in your frontal lobe, but there are also many other parts of your mind and brain that do important things, but aren’t self reflective. I’ve come to think of my brain as a committee. There are many things I can do, like walk or even do a mathematical proof, that I cannot really describe the process. We see in things like addiction that the self reflective mind also does not always (or maybe even often) have ultimate control over behavior. Kahenaman and Gallwey talk about this as System 1/2 and Self 1/2. Julian Jaynes even thinks that people used to have complete other simulated people inside of themselves that they called gods, and this still happens to people with Schizophrenia.

sgt101 2y ago

I choose thoughts - I can conjour images, or scenes into my mind. I can choose not to think about things. In fact, this is a proof of free will. If you were compelled to consider the consequences of your actions then evil would be impossible. The fact that we see evil means that people can choose not to think about what will happen when they do evil things.

maxdoop 2y ago
What will your next thought be? Think of a movie — why did that movie arise in your mind? It’s an illusion but that doesn’t negate we must operate as though our will is free!
- drdeca 2y ago
  What do you mean by “as though our will is free” when you say that “we must operate as though our will is free”?
  - sgt101 2y ago
    This is at the heart of it.
lostmsu 2y ago
Not really, the decision to choose a particular thought first comes into your mind the way above comment says.
- sgt101 2y ago
  Really - to state otherwise is just a play on words. Think carefully. Think friend, think.
tasty_freeze 2y ago
As the famous quote goes, you are free to choose, but you aren't free to choose what you choose. Unpacking: assuming you aren't coerced, you choose one of N options "freely". But all the factors (many inscrutable) that contribute to the ultimate choice are predetermined from your biology to all your lived experience (which ultimately is encoded in your brain in some manner). Sam Harris has a short (7 minute) video with a demonstration of this. The demonstration starts about 1:20 in, but it is worth watching the minute setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA

ck2 2y ago

You can still have free will with "locked in" events. Time is a fourth dimension but think of everything that has and everything that will happen as a three dimensional cube for a moment. Now step outside the cube and observe everything that has and ever will happen. Does that mean there was no free will because it's all observable and was "locked in" ? No of course not. It's a unique box of time. If you look around there could be another unique box of time with different free will choices being made inside it. (btw this is one way they attempt to theorize an excuse for quantum entanglement, it "knows" the outcome already by also existing outside the box)

api 2y ago

The choice is upstream. You choose what to focus on, which gives standing orders to your brain, which eventually leads to eureka moments. If you choose to focus entirely on baking you'll have eureka moments about that.

dsizzle 2y ago

Why would you assume it's all or nothing? Will (free or otherwise) implies something like effort and clearly we're not constantly applying effort. Believing in free will doesn't mean believing that everything results from it.

fijiaarone 2y ago
Usually people that don’t being in thought can’t think, so from their limited perspective, their arguments kinda make sense. It’s like white swans. If you’ve never seen a bird, you might think that nobody has ever seen a white swan.

jll29 2y ago

This is a bit like saying program counters don't exist because a program's control flow can be changed by interrupts.

d0mine 2y ago

The presence of subconscious processes doesn't deny the existence of conscious ones. Focus/diffuses modes are widely known/accepted. You can direct the unconscious thoughts too. If I spend some time intensely trying to solve a problem on the conscious level, often I get new ideas on how to approach it in the morning or during a long run (without thinking about it on the conscious level). --- Unrelated: the discussions about free will often miss that the existence of atoms doesn't imply that a wooden table doesn't exist: they are on different levels of abstraction--no point in comparing.

lukan 2y ago

One can want to have eureka moments. And than one thinks hard. And then one fine day "eureka!" But they do not happen on their own. It takes effort to make them possible, even though there is no guaruantee that they will come (Dead ends exists).

exe34 2y ago

i don't believe in free will either, but this isn't very convincing evidence. eureka moments don't hit like bird poo in the middle of the street. they hit people who have spent months-decades thinking about the problem. a more convincing argument is that they didn't have a choice in choosing that ball of yarn to pick at - mostly it comes along as an irrepressible urge to figure it out.