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While we're at it, we need to break Microsoft and Amazon asap. I don't know how Microsoft is not up for discussion when it's a behemoth (GitHub, LinkedIn, Azure

While we're at it, we need to break Microsoft and Amazon asap. I don't know how Microsoft is not up for discussion when it's a behemoth (GitHub, LinkedIn, Azure, Windows, Office, etc.). The same applies for Amazon.

Someone 2y ago
> I don't know how Microsoft is not up for discussion when it's a behemoth Because we think interfering with the free market is necessary when a company misuses market power, not solely when it is a behemoth.
- jszymborski 2y ago
  Public companies exist to enrich shareholders. If you are in a position to abuse your market power, you're sorta obligated to.
  - aembleton 2y ago
    But doing so increases risk from regulators
    - jszymborski 2y ago
      I think if you can get as big as Google, Apple, or Microsoft without being broken up, companies haven't much to worry about.
  - azemetre 2y ago
    Agreed. Free markets is such a massive misnomer. The only thing that matters is competitive markets. “Free markets” is typically associated with regulatory capture, buying out your competitors, and abusing your monopoly status to thwart others. Governments should care about competition, not that abusive corporations stay at the top.
- lmpdev 2y ago
  That’s not my understanding The Gilded Age Trusts were brought down regardless as to whether they misused their power. It wasn’t just oil. Monopolies are like a positive feedback loop which causes the market to diverge into a barely functional state It doesn’t matter if they abused their market position, monopolies are to be corrected, mens rea present or not
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- dmonitor 2y ago
  Let’s be real: Windows is practically a monopoly. They use it to push their online services in ridiculous ways. I doubt >10% of the current Edge userbase is through conscious decision. Teams obviously cannot compete on its own terms with any competitors, its prevalence only comes from being part of Microsoft’s all in one office suite package that no individual company can compete with.
  - booleandilemma 2y ago
    I don't think it's true that Windows is a monopoly anymore. You could always get a mac. Most people I know use macs, in fact. I still use Windows but I'm in the minority. I tried going to Linux earlier but I still feel Windows has smoother performance.
    - asadotzler 2y ago
      Windows is 60-70% of US PC usage. Mac is 20-25%. Globally, it's even more lopsided with Windows at about 75% and Mac at about 15%. Hard to say Windows isn't a monopoly.
      - NoPicklez 2y ago
        The usage percentage doesn't really matter so much as how they got to that % percentage.
- tyree731 2y ago
  But Microsoft has misused their market power plenty of times, such as when they bundled Microsoft Teams with their enterprise contract at zero cost, destroying Slack's market value overnight.
  - paxys 2y ago
    Not just bundled, but force-installed Teams on every Windows computer.
  - hbn 2y ago
    Or how about the fact that basically no one uses Windows by choice, they use it because they need to for some app, and because of that Microsoft makes the entire OS constantly harass everyone to try and trick them into signing up for Microsoft services. Regularly I get an OS update that walks me through "setting up" my "new" PC I've had for 3 years, and it involves dodging dark pattern UIs to not sign up for Office or Xbox Game Pass or set Edge as my default browser. And even if I succeed, they'll probably have taught my computer a new way to try to sell me something. One update they added their horrible Copilot chatbot as an app to my taskbar, which I promptly unpinned. Then the next update they removed my "show desktop" button - which has been a consistent part of Windows for 15 years - and replaced it with ANOTHER COPILOT BUTTON. I had to look up online how to restore a basic navigation button that was replaced with an ad for their terrible new AI product.
    - NoPicklez 2y ago
      "Basically no one uses Windows by choice" Uhh not really, I use it by choice, because it provides functionality that other brands don't. That operating system provides functionality, compatibility and services that other manufacturers don't.
      - hbn 2y ago
        No idea what functions or services Windows has that doesn't exist on other platforms in an equal or superior way. PowerShell maybe? "Compatibility" is exactly what I'm referring to as being the issue. I use Windows because it has compatibility with my Steam library. But if I could play those games hassle-free on another platform then I'd love to never boot up that dark-pattern-riddled adware dumpster fire excuse for an OS again.
- zifpanachr23 2y ago
  Speak for yourself. "We" didn't agree to anything.
FMecha 2y ago
They tried to do this in 2000/2001, but it didn't result in a breakup.
epolanski 2y ago
GitHub isn't making me use Azure, Azure isn't making me use Office, Teams isn't making me use Bing. See the point here? All of Google pieces are a giant machine to collude in the same direction: their ad engine.
- dekhn 2y ago
  How does Google Cloud (I mean GCP, not Workspace) fit in to that idea? It's not particularly bundled to the ad engine.
  - ffgtedggf 2y ago
    Bad counter example. Have you tried using Google ads or analytics without using BigQuery? What about server containers (not the type of containers in the docker sense you’re thinking of)? The data exfil costs for anything else tie you to gcp.

Someone 2y ago

> I don't know how Microsoft is not up for discussion when it's a behemoth Because we think interfering with the free market is necessary when a company misuses market power, not solely when it is a behemoth.

jszymborski 2y ago
Public companies exist to enrich shareholders. If you are in a position to abuse your market power, you're sorta obligated to.
- aembleton 2y ago
  But doing so increases risk from regulators
  - jszymborski 2y ago
    I think if you can get as big as Google, Apple, or Microsoft without being broken up, companies haven't much to worry about.
- azemetre 2y ago
  Agreed. Free markets is such a massive misnomer. The only thing that matters is competitive markets. “Free markets” is typically associated with regulatory capture, buying out your competitors, and abusing your monopoly status to thwart others. Governments should care about competition, not that abusive corporations stay at the top.
lmpdev 2y ago
That’s not my understanding The Gilded Age Trusts were brought down regardless as to whether they misused their power. It wasn’t just oil. Monopolies are like a positive feedback loop which causes the market to diverge into a barely functional state It doesn’t matter if they abused their market position, monopolies are to be corrected, mens rea present or not
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dmonitor 2y ago
Let’s be real: Windows is practically a monopoly. They use it to push their online services in ridiculous ways. I doubt >10% of the current Edge userbase is through conscious decision. Teams obviously cannot compete on its own terms with any competitors, its prevalence only comes from being part of Microsoft’s all in one office suite package that no individual company can compete with.
- booleandilemma 2y ago
  I don't think it's true that Windows is a monopoly anymore. You could always get a mac. Most people I know use macs, in fact. I still use Windows but I'm in the minority. I tried going to Linux earlier but I still feel Windows has smoother performance.
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    Windows is 60-70% of US PC usage. Mac is 20-25%. Globally, it's even more lopsided with Windows at about 75% and Mac at about 15%. Hard to say Windows isn't a monopoly.
    - NoPicklez 2y ago
      The usage percentage doesn't really matter so much as how they got to that % percentage.
tyree731 2y ago
But Microsoft has misused their market power plenty of times, such as when they bundled Microsoft Teams with their enterprise contract at zero cost, destroying Slack's market value overnight.
- paxys 2y ago
  Not just bundled, but force-installed Teams on every Windows computer.
- hbn 2y ago
  Or how about the fact that basically no one uses Windows by choice, they use it because they need to for some app, and because of that Microsoft makes the entire OS constantly harass everyone to try and trick them into signing up for Microsoft services. Regularly I get an OS update that walks me through "setting up" my "new" PC I've had for 3 years, and it involves dodging dark pattern UIs to not sign up for Office or Xbox Game Pass or set Edge as my default browser. And even if I succeed, they'll probably have taught my computer a new way to try to sell me something. One update they added their horrible Copilot chatbot as an app to my taskbar, which I promptly unpinned. Then the next update they removed my "show desktop" button - which has been a consistent part of Windows for 15 years - and replaced it with ANOTHER COPILOT BUTTON. I had to look up online how to restore a basic navigation button that was replaced with an ad for their terrible new AI product.
  - NoPicklez 2y ago
    "Basically no one uses Windows by choice" Uhh not really, I use it by choice, because it provides functionality that other brands don't. That operating system provides functionality, compatibility and services that other manufacturers don't.
    - hbn 2y ago
      No idea what functions or services Windows has that doesn't exist on other platforms in an equal or superior way. PowerShell maybe? "Compatibility" is exactly what I'm referring to as being the issue. I use Windows because it has compatibility with my Steam library. But if I could play those games hassle-free on another platform then I'd love to never boot up that dark-pattern-riddled adware dumpster fire excuse for an OS again.
zifpanachr23 2y ago
Speak for yourself. "We" didn't agree to anything.

FMecha 2y ago

They tried to do this in 2000/2001, but it didn't result in a breakup.

epolanski 2y ago

GitHub isn't making me use Azure, Azure isn't making me use Office, Teams isn't making me use Bing. See the point here? All of Google pieces are a giant machine to collude in the same direction: their ad engine.

dekhn 2y ago
How does Google Cloud (I mean GCP, not Workspace) fit in to that idea? It's not particularly bundled to the ad engine.
- ffgtedggf 2y ago
  Bad counter example. Have you tried using Google ads or analytics without using BigQuery? What about server containers (not the type of containers in the docker sense you’re thinking of)? The data exfil costs for anything else tie you to gcp.