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> These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about which they are completely ignorant, but they are strident in doing so because they are repeati
by raicem 2y ago
> These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about which they are completely ignorant, but they are strident in doing so because they are repeating what everybody knows. They are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob; their wisdom was received, not crafted.
This is an important takeaway for me, maybe even more than “electirc devices are washable”.
World is filled with conventional wisdom that limits us in countless directions. Knowing how things work empower us to break these “rules”.
- Alupis 2y agoIt's not the water that's the issue generally - it's the minerals in the water. The article author got lucky this time - when electronics die from water contact, it's usually the minerals bridging connections and creating shorts. Letting the device dry does not remove those shorts. Some places have such hard water (lots of minerals) that evaporated water leaves calcium, limestone and other deposits on the surface of everything it's touched. Does that mean doing it once will always cause an issue? Of course not... but repeatedly doing this, and/or becoming used to washing electronics in the dishwasher is a recipe to ruin them in the long term. I would not personally want to play games with a toaster that can be replaced for $20 at your local Walmart...
- kragen 2y agodried calcium carbonate is not a very good conductor, and neither calcium carbonate nor calcium oxide is deliquescent (edit: i said 'calcium chloride' which is of course both wrong and irrelevant) i think the bigger issue with electronics is overheating their electrolytic capacitors
- autokad 2y agoyou do realize the reason why fires get started is because things become a BAD conductor right?
- kragen 2y agoit's not that simple. it's because things are medium bad conductors, like the nichrome wire in the toaster, which is absolutely fantastic for setting things on fire things that are really good conductors like the copper wires in the toaster don't heat up (much) because they don't drop much voltage, and things that are really bad conductors, like the panels that support the nichrome wires and like calcium carbonate, don't heat up at all, because they don't carry any current. it's the things that are in between that cause fires: they can carry enough current to be a problem, while also dropping enough voltage to be a problem this has been introductory electrical engineering 101. i'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your server, and read chapters 1 of horowitz & hill by monday
- autokad 2y agothat's partially true; however, I still think I was right. yes, there are places that don't heat up because the current doesn't go through them, but only because they have easier paths. if the electricity wanted to go through them, they would heat up hotter than anything else. the point is, things can corrode, electricity goes in places it wasn't intended or through resistances it wasn't intended, and becomes a fire hazard.
- Renaud 2y agoWould mineral deposits be sufficiently large and conductive that they would cause an actual issue between components? They would probably represent nothing more than minor stray resistance/capacitance. Assuming it was conductive enough, a scales bridge between higher voltage parts would just represent a path of material a few microns thick that would vaporize as soon as the toaster would be plugged in. For other electronic devices, any component with a hole, like a microphone, barometric, humidity sensor, or mechanical (HDD), is more likely to suffer a more permanent fate. If water gets inside a relay housing, chemicals from the washing liquid may damage or gunk the contacts and reduce their life. LCD screens, glued parts and thin plastics don't fare well in dishwashers either...
- throwway120385 2y agoA lot of household appliances use potted relays and conformal coatings. If you pull the control board out of your clothes washer you'll see what I mean. It's particularly important because the control board is often within spitting distance of a solenoid that's holding back 60-80 psi of water.
- tuatoru 2y ago> Would mineral deposits be sufficiently large and conductive that they would cause an actual issue between components? > They would probably represent nothing more than minor stray resistance/capacitance. Spoken like someone who has never maintained any electronic devices. Skepticism should err on the side of risk management.
- jdietrich 2y ago>Would mineral deposits be sufficiently large and conductive that they would cause an actual issue between components? A good proportion of water-damaged cellphones can be revived just by washing the logic board thoroughly in isopropyl alcohol. It's possible that this is due to small amounts of water trapped in crevices, but I've seen it work on boards that looked bone-dry under the microscope.
- LoganDark 2y ago
- autokad 2y agototally agree, I had an electrical device catch on fire because of this exact instance Once electronics gets wet (like stuff you plug into a wall), it usually should be discarded for safety's sake. edit: its not just that, the water causes the copper to oxidise and swell, touching places it shouldnt
- Flop7331 2y agoAfter you take it out of the dishwasher, rinse it with distilled water, then let it dry.
- boznz 2y agoA $20 something you are about to throw away is the perfect thing to play games with.
- Retric 2y agoIt’s the fire risk that’s the issue not 20$.
- nomel 2y agoTo be fair, a toaster is always a fire risk. That's why the manual says never put them under flammable things. You should always assume your toaster will catch fire.
- Retric 2y agoThe toaster body itself may not be a big deal, but the cord and plug are also going to be a risk here.
- hobolobo 2y agoWhat fire risk if it's in a dishwasher? :)
- Retric 2y agoYou only save money if you plug it in afterwards. At which point residue poses a fire risk. Also, many dishwashers have a garbage disposal which isn’t inside the water and may fail if the cord gets into it. Not likely to happen, but enough people try it and someone may directly get an electrical fire while the dishwasher is running.
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- alvah 2y agoA toaster (at least a cheap toaster) is an electrical device, not an electronic one, as stated by the author in the article. Please look up the difference if you don't know what it is.
- autoexec 2y agoWe have toasters that run linux, connect to the internet, and play doom. Explain to me how they aren't electronic devices.
- dekhn 2y agoEven cheap toasters (I take toaster apart for fun) have true electronics these days because it's usually cheaper to implement things like timers electronically and if the toaster has a display it certainly has some electronics. But I suspect that the absolute simplest toasters are purely mechanical and electrical.
- deepspace 2y agoMost toasters these days actually use a PT8A2514A (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PT8A2514A.pdf https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PT8A2514A.pdf) microcontroller. But it is still safe to wash, for the same reason as it is usually safe to wash a keyboard.
- dekhn 2y agoIt's not every day you see a datasheet with a "bagel" in the diagram.
- kube-system 2y agoI was curious so I did some searching -- this is the cheapest toaster that I'm aware of in the US, and it surprisingly does have a custom IC that handles the timing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLFG068HtgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLFG068HtgM
- alwa 2y agoWhy not play such games? If it works, it works; if it fails, it only costs $20 to replace at your local Walmart!
- nkrisc 2y agoBecause failure modes of toasters may include fire.
- bregma 2y agoA toaster is normally filled with dessicated carbohydrate particles, which are an explosive fire risk. I would think going through dishwasher would significantly reduce the fire risk.
- nkrisc 2y agoAnd once you start using it again they begin replenishing. Except now the toaster may or may not be compromised in some way. There’s no amount of benefit here worth even a minuscule risk of a house fire.
- qingcharles 2y agoI've always put my (dumb, wired) keyboards in the dishwasher and they have always come out great. I'm a statistic of one, though. I don't know if I just got lucky.
- m463 2y agoAre they dumb? Isn't there a microprocessor in every keyboard?
- deepspace 2y agoYes, and it is perfectly safe to wash a simple circuit board, as long as the rinse water is clean, and it gets dried reasonable quickly. Both conditions are met in a dishwasher.
- qingcharles 2y agoYes, sorry, I meant there's no battery.
- I_AM_A_SMURF 2y agoMicroprocessors (especially older ones) are _very_ hard to kill. They're a piece of silicon embedded in epoxy essentially, very inert. There are a lot of people who wash arcade PCBs in the dishwasher, not a practice I endorse, but it works.
- rtpg 2y agoOf course I've seen the opposite all the time. People who find issues with the conventional reasoning, and then apply their own _extremely faulty reasoning_ to reach their own conclusion! Someone having incorrect reasoning doesn't mean they are wrong, just that they do not know (in the sense of knowing something for the right reasons) Case in point: OP decided to wash the toaster in the dishwasher. Their story about walking through water assuming that their hair dryer experiment validated them walking through water with a bunch of sockets.... they are applying super hand-wavy reasoning in the same way as the critics are! The funny thing about the whole piece is that while "an unplugged toaster through the washing machine is probably fine" is not a huge leap, so much in the PS is indicative of how I would not really trust this person much for their decision making
- philipswood 2y ago> so much in the PS is indicative of how I would not really trust this person much for their decision making That escalated fast. If he is this reckless with toasters - imagine the dangers he poses to his students! OTOH I find few people trustworthy in decision making of any kind.
- thataintright1 2y agoSpot on. This “teacher” is doing a piss-poor job of challenging “conventional wisdom” that saves lives. What are students learning from him cavalierly running a hairdryer underwater and marching into electrified water? Yes, electricians often have plenty of experience with getting shocked. But all it takes is one dumb mistake and you quickly die a horrible death, with muscles locked up unable to self-rescue in a location where immediate bystanders will risk their own lives to rescue. What kind of dumbass proudly tells about wading into electrified flooding in front of colleagues when there wasn’t even any urgent reason to do so? What would it have cost to simply wait and cut the power first, calling the power company if necessary if a breaker box could not be safely reached for some reason (unlikely)? And many/most circuits outside code-compliant kitchens and baths aren’t GFCI, and GFCI doesn’t protect against all electrocutions (you can be electrocuted in a short without a ground fault). Now consider electrical fires from getting sloppy with damaged wiring and electrical devices, which are a leading cause of deaths from fire.