6 ms·

Utah outlaws books by Judy Blume and Sarah J Maas in first statewide ban

23 points by pwenzel 2y ago

taylodl 2y ago
Such bans tend to have the opposite effect of what was intended: people become curious as to why the books were banned and then go and read them. The lure of forbidden fruit is real.
- francisofascii 2y ago
  And this is just a ban from public schools in libraries. So people will still go buy the books at the local Barnes and Noble or online off Amazon.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- shrubble 2y ago
  The books by Maas are NYT bestsellers, so a great many people already know of them.
- red012 2y ago
  [flagged]
aebtebeten 2y ago
> ...because they were considered to contain “pornographic or indecent” material Guess the christian bible isn't going to last long there then. Lagniappe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-14597,_Berlin,_Opernplatz,_Bücherverbrennung.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings#/media/File...
- nineteen999 2y ago
  or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus#/media/File:Beatles_burning.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus#/media...
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    to be fair to WAYX, unlike Utah they weren't being hypocritical, in that I don't recall any part of the bible that claims it's more popular* than the Beatles. (for creatures that the creator had an inordinate fondness for, even beetles get short shrift; all I've found is Lev.11:22 "ye may eat ... the beetle after his kind ...") * how should we measure popularity? By Google hits, Jesus wins, hands down, but by platinum record multiples (Amy Grant being in the single digits), John had a point.
    - mysterydip 2y ago
      Reminds me of a joke: "A shark could swim faster than me, but I could probably run faster than a shark. So in a triathlon, it would all come down to who is the better cyclist."
      - 082349872349872 2y ago
        On first thought, a shark would make a pretty good roadie: they don't need to shave their leg hair, for instance. However, it appears that both basking sharks and great whites peak at only 5.5 W/kg, while professional human cyclists can sustain such output. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209042/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209042/ (incidentally, everything old is new again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41179954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41179954 )
- _fs 2y ago
  Considering that Mormons are not Christians, I don't think they care
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    It's my impression they believe they are? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Relationship_with_mainstream_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Relationship_with_ma... For the downvoters: specifically, I had been remembering Lot when making the original comment, but I'm sure examples of biblical indecency can easily be multiplied.
    - defrost 2y ago
      If you go to a pubic library the bible tends to fall open at Ezekiel 23:20
      - 082349872349872 2y ago
        In those days the second "B" of the ontological acronym must've been "Babylonian"?
        defrost 2y ago
        Broadcasting Babylonian Cuneiform ? I guess so.
        082349872349872 2y ago
        BBC's world service, at its height, provided content not just in cuneiform but also other internationally used scripts, including translations/transliterations of their most popular programme, the gardening show "Paradise in a 𒊬: big joy from small holdings". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_units_of_measurement#Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_units_of_...
    - downrightmike 2y ago
- graemep 2y ago
  The Nazis did not like the Bible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity They were not exactly keen on Jewish saviour and scriptures written by jews! The Bible is not popular with a lot of people now either. People have been arrested in the UK for reading aloud from offensive bits of the Bible.
java-man 2y ago
I am sure it's perfectly fine and constitutional, right?
- chrismcb 2y ago
  Yes. Well maybe not perfectly fine. But it is constitutional. It isn't a public bag, just removal from public schools. Generally adult books and belong in schools. The issue here is these (or some of them) are aimed at young adults. You can question whether the books meet the pornography/indecent bar or not.
wilsonnb3 2y ago
"outlaws" in the sense that they won't be in school libraries or used in classes, title is misleading.
- smegsicle 2y ago
  they will surely be pushing to ban from amazon next, just watch
slwvx 2y ago
The Salt Lake Tribune has an article [1] on this. If you want more on Utah, see the Tribune's articles on [2] the divide between Mormon and non-Mormons in the state, and [3] how long people in the state will have access to abortion. [1] https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2024/08/02/utah-book-ban-list-these-titles/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2024/08/02/utah-book-b... [2] https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/08/07/how-utahs-lds-vs-non-lds-divide-is/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/08/07/how-utahs-lds-vs-... [3] https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2024/08/05/how-long-will-utahns-have-access/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2024/08/05/how-long-wil...
bryanlarsen 2y ago
My daughter recently started reading Maas. Definitely one of those "oh %@#!, my daughter is growing up" moments.
thedman9052 2y ago
I recognize "A Court of Thorns and Roses" because my wife likes to complain about it. To hear her tell it, they're middling fantasy novels that are popular because they include graphic sex, but otherwise have a stereotypical plot and flat main heroine who is nevertheless irresistible to all the male characters. Sounds similar to how "Fifty Shades of Grey" captured the attention of an audience who wasn't previously familiar with that sort of content.
big-green-man 2y ago
Calling these book bans is like claiming Facebook "bans" news in Canada. They're not going to be carried by school libraries or be part of the curriculum. You're still free to read these books and give them to your kids to read. It's like saying churches "ban" the Koran because they don't teach it in church.
- eesmith 2y ago
  You can have a ban in certain areas or times without a state-wide prohibition. Consider the sentence "In 1995, California was the first state to enact a statewide smoking ban for restaurants." at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_Un... . Or from a 2003 article at https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2003/10/16/french-students-fired-up-over-smoking-ban-at-school/ https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2003/10/16/french-students-f... : > DOMONT, France: French high school students are up in arms over attempts by teachers to ban them from smoking between classes. "We're not allowed to smoke anywhere on the school grounds any more. They treat us like babies," said Melodie Gambero, 17, a student in Domont, north of Paris, who went on strike with fellow students last week against the new rules. Just like, how the "California ban on singing or chanting at religious services" at https://apnews.com/article/7c11840c31de504a939c926f63006102 https://apnews.com/article/7c11840c31de504a939c926f63006102 did not preclude singing or chanting at home.
  - big-green-man 2y ago
    All your examples are actually bans though. They prohibit people from freely engaging in certain behavior. The distinction I'm making is not that the Utah school book ban is contextual or based on location, it's that it's not really a ban at all. They're not going to teach these books or make them available to students. Nobody is telling students "you can't read these books." Would you call video games "banned" because they're not available at the school library?
    - eesmith 2y ago
      Is your point that "ban" is the wrong word because students are not banned from reading such books, even at the school library, so long as they bring their own copy? That's a very narrow and non-standard use of the term. The ban here applies to banning the school from providing such books, and I can easily find other examples where "ban" is used to describe restrictions on a school placed by the district or legislature. - "Across the United States, many states have actively banned the sale of soda in high schools, and evidence suggests that students’ in-school access to soda has declined as a result." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658713/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658713/ - "Bill Introduced to Ban Sale of Sports Drinks at Schools" https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/bill-introduced-to-ban-sports-drinks/2075383/ https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/bill-introduced-to-ba... - "Bans on School Junk Food Pay Off in California" https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/bans-on-school-junk-food-pay-off-in-california/ https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/0... (that's a state-wide ban) - "Last year, 44 percent of school districts banned junk food from vending machines, believing that by eliminating unhealthy foods, they'd encourage kids to eat better." https://www.medicaldaily.com/vending-machine-bans-schools-encourage-kids-find-fast-food-elsewhere-changing-diets-297454 https://www.medicaldaily.com/vending-machine-bans-schools-en... (these are district bans) - In Texas, the "state pulled french fries in 2004 and banned deep frying completely in 2009", https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2013/06/28/new-usda-rules-ban-schools-sales-of-sports-drinks-sugary-snacks/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2013/06/28/new-usd... Just because the school is banned from proving soft drinks, candy bars, sports drinks, and french fries, that doesn't necessarily mean students are prohibited from bringing the same from home. FWIW, my local library bans children from using the library computers to play fighting and shooting games. That is a ban. Even if a child may play the same game on their own device while at the library. My library also has video games to check out. If the state made a law prohibiting the library from doing so, yes, that would correctly be called a ban on providing video games.

23 points by pwenzel 2y ago

Such bans tend to have the opposite effect of what was intended: people become curious as to why the books were banned and then go and read them. The lure of forbidden fruit is real.

francisofascii 2y ago
And this is just a ban from public schools in libraries. So people will still go buy the books at the local Barnes and Noble or online off Amazon.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
shrubble 2y ago
The books by Maas are NYT bestsellers, so a great many people already know of them.
red012 2y ago
[flagged]

aebtebeten 2y ago

> ...because they were considered to contain “pornographic or indecent” material Guess the christian bible isn't going to last long there then. Lagniappe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-14597,_Berlin,_Opernplatz,_Bücherverbrennung.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings#/media/File...

nineteen999 2y ago
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus#/media/File:Beatles_burning.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus#/media...
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  to be fair to WAYX, unlike Utah they weren't being hypocritical, in that I don't recall any part of the bible that claims it's more popular* than the Beatles. (for creatures that the creator had an inordinate fondness for, even beetles get short shrift; all I've found is Lev.11:22 "ye may eat ... the beetle after his kind ...") * how should we measure popularity? By Google hits, Jesus wins, hands down, but by platinum record multiples (Amy Grant being in the single digits), John had a point.
  - mysterydip 2y ago
    Reminds me of a joke: "A shark could swim faster than me, but I could probably run faster than a shark. So in a triathlon, it would all come down to who is the better cyclist."
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      On first thought, a shark would make a pretty good roadie: they don't need to shave their leg hair, for instance. However, it appears that both basking sharks and great whites peak at only 5.5 W/kg, while professional human cyclists can sustain such output. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209042/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209042/ (incidentally, everything old is new again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41179954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41179954 )
_fs 2y ago
Considering that Mormons are not Christians, I don't think they care
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  It's my impression they believe they are? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Relationship_with_mainstream_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Relationship_with_ma... For the downvoters: specifically, I had been remembering Lot when making the original comment, but I'm sure examples of biblical indecency can easily be multiplied.
  - defrost 2y ago
    If you go to a pubic library the bible tends to fall open at Ezekiel 23:20
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      In those days the second "B" of the ontological acronym must've been "Babylonian"?
      - defrost 2y ago
        Broadcasting Babylonian Cuneiform ? I guess so.
        082349872349872 2y ago
        BBC's world service, at its height, provided content not just in cuneiform but also other internationally used scripts, including translations/transliterations of their most popular programme, the gardening show "Paradise in a 𒊬: big joy from small holdings". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_units_of_measurement#Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_units_of_...
  - downrightmike 2y ago
graemep 2y ago
The Nazis did not like the Bible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity They were not exactly keen on Jewish saviour and scriptures written by jews! The Bible is not popular with a lot of people now either. People have been arrested in the UK for reading aloud from offensive bits of the Bible.

java-man 2y ago

I am sure it's perfectly fine and constitutional, right?

chrismcb 2y ago
Yes. Well maybe not perfectly fine. But it is constitutional. It isn't a public bag, just removal from public schools. Generally adult books and belong in schools. The issue here is these (or some of them) are aimed at young adults. You can question whether the books meet the pornography/indecent bar or not.

wilsonnb3 2y ago

"outlaws" in the sense that they won't be in school libraries or used in classes, title is misleading.

smegsicle 2y ago
they will surely be pushing to ban from amazon next, just watch

slwvx 2y ago

The Salt Lake Tribune has an article [1] on this. If you want more on Utah, see the Tribune's articles on [2] the divide between Mormon and non-Mormons in the state, and [3] how long people in the state will have access to abortion. [1] https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2024/08/02/utah-book-ban-list-these-titles/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2024/08/02/utah-book-b... [2] https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/08/07/how-utahs-lds-vs-non-lds-divide-is/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/08/07/how-utahs-lds-vs-... [3] https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2024/08/05/how-long-will-utahns-have-access/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2024/08/05/how-long-wil...

bryanlarsen 2y ago

My daughter recently started reading Maas. Definitely one of those "oh %@#!, my daughter is growing up" moments.

thedman9052 2y ago

I recognize "A Court of Thorns and Roses" because my wife likes to complain about it. To hear her tell it, they're middling fantasy novels that are popular because they include graphic sex, but otherwise have a stereotypical plot and flat main heroine who is nevertheless irresistible to all the male characters. Sounds similar to how "Fifty Shades of Grey" captured the attention of an audience who wasn't previously familiar with that sort of content.

big-green-man 2y ago

Calling these book bans is like claiming Facebook "bans" news in Canada. They're not going to be carried by school libraries or be part of the curriculum. You're still free to read these books and give them to your kids to read. It's like saying churches "ban" the Koran because they don't teach it in church.

eesmith 2y ago
You can have a ban in certain areas or times without a state-wide prohibition. Consider the sentence "In 1995, California was the first state to enact a statewide smoking ban for restaurants." at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_Un... . Or from a 2003 article at https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2003/10/16/french-students-fired-up-over-smoking-ban-at-school/ https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2003/10/16/french-students-f... : > DOMONT, France: French high school students are up in arms over attempts by teachers to ban them from smoking between classes. "We're not allowed to smoke anywhere on the school grounds any more. They treat us like babies," said Melodie Gambero, 17, a student in Domont, north of Paris, who went on strike with fellow students last week against the new rules. Just like, how the "California ban on singing or chanting at religious services" at https://apnews.com/article/7c11840c31de504a939c926f63006102 https://apnews.com/article/7c11840c31de504a939c926f63006102 did not preclude singing or chanting at home.
- big-green-man 2y ago
  All your examples are actually bans though. They prohibit people from freely engaging in certain behavior. The distinction I'm making is not that the Utah school book ban is contextual or based on location, it's that it's not really a ban at all. They're not going to teach these books or make them available to students. Nobody is telling students "you can't read these books." Would you call video games "banned" because they're not available at the school library?
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Is your point that "ban" is the wrong word because students are not banned from reading such books, even at the school library, so long as they bring their own copy? That's a very narrow and non-standard use of the term. The ban here applies to banning the school from providing such books, and I can easily find other examples where "ban" is used to describe restrictions on a school placed by the district or legislature. - "Across the United States, many states have actively banned the sale of soda in high schools, and evidence suggests that students’ in-school access to soda has declined as a result." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658713/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658713/ - "Bill Introduced to Ban Sale of Sports Drinks at Schools" https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/bill-introduced-to-ban-sports-drinks/2075383/ https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/bill-introduced-to-ba... - "Bans on School Junk Food Pay Off in California" https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/bans-on-school-junk-food-pay-off-in-california/ https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/0... (that's a state-wide ban) - "Last year, 44 percent of school districts banned junk food from vending machines, believing that by eliminating unhealthy foods, they'd encourage kids to eat better." https://www.medicaldaily.com/vending-machine-bans-schools-encourage-kids-find-fast-food-elsewhere-changing-diets-297454 https://www.medicaldaily.com/vending-machine-bans-schools-en... (these are district bans) - In Texas, the "state pulled french fries in 2004 and banned deep frying completely in 2009", https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2013/06/28/new-usda-rules-ban-schools-sales-of-sports-drinks-sugary-snacks/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2013/06/28/new-usd... Just because the school is banned from proving soft drinks, candy bars, sports drinks, and french fries, that doesn't necessarily mean students are prohibited from bringing the same from home. FWIW, my local library bans children from using the library computers to play fighting and shooting games. That is a ban. Even if a child may play the same game on their own device while at the library. My library also has video games to check out. If the state made a law prohibiting the library from doing so, yes, that would correctly be called a ban on providing video games.