10 ms·

Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

44 points by WWWMMMWWW 2y ago

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  I think the future is pretty bright here in Spain. More importantly, I think things are really fine as they are. We just have to keep the climate deteriorating in check because being in a hot country we're really starting to feel that here. But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
    Are you sure it's not because of Spain qualifying for the final? /jk
- archagon 2y ago
  I’ve been in the US for decades. My hope for the future of the country has faded to almost nothing in recent years.
- antifa 2y ago
  I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.). Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers. The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
    Maybe so. But then you see the sheer hopelessness in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia and you realize the US is still where things can happen.
alephnerd 2y ago
Pretty much. Salaries across Europe are extremely low compared to similar roles at a similar caliber abroad.
- fwsgonzo 2y ago
  Hard to disagree, but have you seen abroad? Seems like outside Europe you're at a constant one health crisis away from homelessness. Is that even an exaggeration at this point? https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg
  - decafninja 2y ago
    Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed American insurance. I’d rather have a (often significantly) bigger US salary. If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries. I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment. Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.
    - cooolbear 2y ago
      Aside from the usury of US healthcare, even with insurance from your employer, dealing with the healthcare in Canada is a dream to the US. You might have to wait to see a doctor (most people probably still have to wait in the US if you're lucky enough to get treatment), but there's essentially no fight with layers and layers of occult insurance for anything you get a referral from a doctor for. No surprise or hidden 'networks' to speak of. I think that people who are fine with US healthcare don't really realize how incredibly inefficient and harmful it is to be so uncertain about whether or not insurance will cover your treatment.
      - floxy 2y ago
        Is there a way to find out which CGRP medications for migraines are covered by which provincial health plans? Seems like a few of them are available if you have private insurance. Or if you could pay the fairly steep costs out of pocket.
Zyten 2y ago
I agree that salary is not necessarily the highest in the EU. When looking at job offerings outside my current job, it sometimes feels like I would actually get less salary than I currently do. However, my current job has almost no chance of promotion. In addition, no permanent contract which will force me to switch jobs in a couple of years as they cannot provide fixed-term contracts due to law anymore.
mkl95 2y ago
EU salaries have been risible for years. My employer will give you a 3% raise every couple of years if you are lucky. When people leave management's answer is we must keep hiring.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HillRat 2y ago
The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.
- ls612 2y ago
  I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.
  - NomDePlum 2y ago
    Depends on your circumstances. My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there. 1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened. 2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse. Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Gud 2y ago
    Yes. I was stationed there for work for 2 years by my employer, overall a good experience. Before going my overall view of Dubai was pretty negative, now I would say it’s slightly positive. They are essentially on the right trajectory.
  - HillRat 2y ago
blackbear_ 2y ago
Using salaries in Italy, Spain, and Hungary as means of comparison and pretending they are be representative of the "European market" reeks of dishonesty. Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article. This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe
- culopatin 2y ago
  And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I got some offers last year when I was considering moving to Europe
  - cherryteastain 2y ago
    London is competitive with tier 2 US cities (i.e. not SF/NYC/Seattle). Switzerland is competitive even with Tier 1 US cities. COL and taxes are higher though.
    - culopatin 2y ago
      So it’s not competitive if taxes are higher and COL is higher. What one cares about is the final income in pocket and purchasing power. I don’t really care if my salary says “1 million” if I keep 50k of that, I only care about the final number unless there is some tax loophole one can exercise like pre tax deductions, but still…
      - theodric 2y ago
        I don't buy that COL is significantly higher unless you're firehosing money everywhere for the hell of it. You can spend scads of money, but you're not obligated to. I lived there for five years, and left in December. My grocery bill was the same as it is now in Ireland (but still less than my parents pay in Chicagoland) and while I don't pay rent in Ireland, a friend just got a "steal" on an apartment @ €2500/mo in outer Dublin, while I was paying CHF 2250 for a 3-storey townhouse with private parking in outer Zürich. Road tax is similar. Health insurance more in CH, but we're talking 6k/yr vs 2.4k. And income tax was so low in CH that the foreign tax credit didn't do much for me, and I ended up having to cut a check to the IRS for 5 figures every year. Switzerland is truly exceptional, and you can make crazy money there.
constantcrying 2y ago
Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc. I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what money could even compell me to live there.
- beaglesss 2y ago
  Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is accessible. If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    >If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective. Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.
    - beaglesss 2y ago
      Makes perfect sense. It's a different target. In terms of being able to start a business up and bring people in from about anywhere, get them working and some semi-modern infrastructure with not a ton of regulatory and immigration hassle though I struggle to think of an easier place to do it. There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Let’s be real though: the US may -very- quickly move in the bad direction, rights-wise, come November. The SCOTUS has also demonstrated its willingness to overturn decades of precedent as soon as they sufficiently tilted that way ideologically. I don’t know if you can strongly count on the US remaining a safe home base when it comes to rights for gay people, minorities, and women, at least in the medium term. I’d use caution.
devwastaken 2y ago
Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is indentured servitude. The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.
- lukevp 2y ago
  What’s broken about the cities in the US exactly? I also don’t generally hear the US referred to as corrupt.
  - guitarbill 2y ago
    Not everything makes the news. Could be small town "politics", sheriff or judge elections, police unilaterally deciding not to enforce laws, etc. Maybe you also count healthcare racket as corruption.
- RestlessMind 2y ago
  Only a few US cities, and that too a few bad areas, are broken. Most Americans live in suburbs which are doing fine.
dexwiz 2y ago
Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheaper, but I’m dubious on if the offset will be enough.
- j7ake 2y ago
  If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
  - rPlayer6554 2y ago
    May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.
    - j7ake 2y ago
      OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.
      - lotsoweiners 2y ago
        As someone who has paid for childcare for 12 years in the US and never got anywhere close to half of the lower end of that amount I would be very curious about which regions they are referring to. Maybe they are referring to 5+ young kids?
      - red-iron-pine 2y ago
wkat4242 2y ago
I don't think so. I live in a low-wage country in Europe (Spain) and I moved here because quality of life is so much better. Holland is overcrowded, overregulated, people are very materialistic and don't enjoy life as much. And on top of it they now have an extreme-right government I want nothing to do with. Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes. Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result. I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?

44 points by WWWMMMWWW 2y ago

The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.

wkat4242 2y ago
I think the future is pretty bright here in Spain. More importantly, I think things are really fine as they are. We just have to keep the climate deteriorating in check because being in a hot country we're really starting to feel that here. But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  Are you sure it's not because of Spain qualifying for the final? /jk
archagon 2y ago
I’ve been in the US for decades. My hope for the future of the country has faded to almost nothing in recent years.
antifa 2y ago
I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.). Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers. The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  Maybe so. But then you see the sheer hopelessness in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia and you realize the US is still where things can happen.

alephnerd 2y ago

Pretty much. Salaries across Europe are extremely low compared to similar roles at a similar caliber abroad.

fwsgonzo 2y ago
Hard to disagree, but have you seen abroad? Seems like outside Europe you're at a constant one health crisis away from homelessness. Is that even an exaggeration at this point? https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg
- decafninja 2y ago
  Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed American insurance. I’d rather have a (often significantly) bigger US salary. If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries. I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment. Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.
  - cooolbear 2y ago
    Aside from the usury of US healthcare, even with insurance from your employer, dealing with the healthcare in Canada is a dream to the US. You might have to wait to see a doctor (most people probably still have to wait in the US if you're lucky enough to get treatment), but there's essentially no fight with layers and layers of occult insurance for anything you get a referral from a doctor for. No surprise or hidden 'networks' to speak of. I think that people who are fine with US healthcare don't really realize how incredibly inefficient and harmful it is to be so uncertain about whether or not insurance will cover your treatment.
    - floxy 2y ago
      Is there a way to find out which CGRP medications for migraines are covered by which provincial health plans? Seems like a few of them are available if you have private insurance. Or if you could pay the fairly steep costs out of pocket.

Zyten 2y ago

I agree that salary is not necessarily the highest in the EU. When looking at job offerings outside my current job, it sometimes feels like I would actually get less salary than I currently do. However, my current job has almost no chance of promotion. In addition, no permanent contract which will force me to switch jobs in a couple of years as they cannot provide fixed-term contracts due to law anymore.

mkl95 2y ago

EU salaries have been risible for years. My employer will give you a 3% raise every couple of years if you are lucky. When people leave management's answer is we must keep hiring.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

HillRat 2y ago

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

ls612 2y ago
I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.
- NomDePlum 2y ago
  Depends on your circumstances. My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there. 1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened. 2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse. Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Gud 2y ago
  Yes. I was stationed there for work for 2 years by my employer, overall a good experience. Before going my overall view of Dubai was pretty negative, now I would say it’s slightly positive. They are essentially on the right trajectory.
- HillRat 2y ago

blackbear_ 2y ago

Using salaries in Italy, Spain, and Hungary as means of comparison and pretending they are be representative of the "European market" reeks of dishonesty. Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article. This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe

culopatin 2y ago
And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I got some offers last year when I was considering moving to Europe
- cherryteastain 2y ago
  London is competitive with tier 2 US cities (i.e. not SF/NYC/Seattle). Switzerland is competitive even with Tier 1 US cities. COL and taxes are higher though.
  - culopatin 2y ago
    So it’s not competitive if taxes are higher and COL is higher. What one cares about is the final income in pocket and purchasing power. I don’t really care if my salary says “1 million” if I keep 50k of that, I only care about the final number unless there is some tax loophole one can exercise like pre tax deductions, but still…
    - theodric 2y ago
      I don't buy that COL is significantly higher unless you're firehosing money everywhere for the hell of it. You can spend scads of money, but you're not obligated to. I lived there for five years, and left in December. My grocery bill was the same as it is now in Ireland (but still less than my parents pay in Chicagoland) and while I don't pay rent in Ireland, a friend just got a "steal" on an apartment @ €2500/mo in outer Dublin, while I was paying CHF 2250 for a 3-storey townhouse with private parking in outer Zürich. Road tax is similar. Health insurance more in CH, but we're talking 6k/yr vs 2.4k. And income tax was so low in CH that the foreign tax credit didn't do much for me, and I ended up having to cut a check to the IRS for 5 figures every year. Switzerland is truly exceptional, and you can make crazy money there.

constantcrying 2y ago

Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc. I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what money could even compell me to live there.

beaglesss 2y ago
Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is accessible. If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective. Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    Makes perfect sense. It's a different target. In terms of being able to start a business up and bring people in from about anywhere, get them working and some semi-modern infrastructure with not a ton of regulatory and immigration hassle though I struggle to think of an easier place to do it. There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Let’s be real though: the US may -very- quickly move in the bad direction, rights-wise, come November. The SCOTUS has also demonstrated its willingness to overturn decades of precedent as soon as they sufficiently tilted that way ideologically. I don’t know if you can strongly count on the US remaining a safe home base when it comes to rights for gay people, minorities, and women, at least in the medium term. I’d use caution.

devwastaken 2y ago

Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is indentured servitude. The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.

lukevp 2y ago
What’s broken about the cities in the US exactly? I also don’t generally hear the US referred to as corrupt.
- guitarbill 2y ago
  Not everything makes the news. Could be small town "politics", sheriff or judge elections, police unilaterally deciding not to enforce laws, etc. Maybe you also count healthcare racket as corruption.
RestlessMind 2y ago
Only a few US cities, and that too a few bad areas, are broken. Most Americans live in suburbs which are doing fine.

dexwiz 2y ago

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheaper, but I’m dubious on if the offset will be enough.

j7ake 2y ago
If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
- rPlayer6554 2y ago
  May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.
  - j7ake 2y ago
    OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.
    - lotsoweiners 2y ago
      As someone who has paid for childcare for 12 years in the US and never got anywhere close to half of the lower end of that amount I would be very curious about which regions they are referring to. Maybe they are referring to 5+ young kids?
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago

wkat4242 2y ago

I don't think so. I live in a low-wage country in Europe (Spain) and I moved here because quality of life is so much better. Holland is overcrowded, overregulated, people are very materialistic and don't enjoy life as much. And on top of it they now have an extreme-right government I want nothing to do with. Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes. Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result. I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?