7 ms·

Boeing's bad decisions were not based on shareholder votes, but rather a cabal of bad actors. You could have this happen in any economic system. In fact, Boein

Boeing's bad decisions were not based on shareholder votes, but rather a cabal of bad actors. You could have this happen in any economic system. In fact, Boeing planes, even with all the cheating, are statistically safer than those produced by the former USSR.

jowea 2y ago
Surely those bad actors were motivated by profits? The shareholders might not have voted for a "profits over safety" motion but the entire system created the incentives that led to bad actors acquiring their positions and doing bad stuff. And the system here is shareholder focused capitalism. Although I agree this could happen in other economic system too, in a communist system it could be simply an order from above for example.
agos 2y ago
I would hope that today's planes are safer than 40 years ago!
anthk 2y ago
Who cares about the USSR, a system who basically turned into Soviet (council) based modern era overnight from feudalism without stepping inside Enlightenment. Of course, it didn't end well. I'm talking about America, with a so-called democracy far older than the USSR. Regulations? New Deal? Wisdom over centuries? What's that? That doesn't make happy my shareholders, so forget that, right? Said this, Boeing it's a disaster.
- queuebert 2y ago
  > I'm talking about America, with a so-called democracy far older than the USSR Technically America is not a democracy -- it's a federal republic composed of states with widely differing interpretations of democracy.
  - jowea 2y ago
    Question: where does the idea that democracy and republic are incompatible comes from? I keep hearing this am curious where it started. Is it because the Founding Fathers wanted aristocratic elements to keep popular will at bay? To me the USA is obviously a (or maybe the) federal democratic republic. There is no contradiction. Sovereignity resides in the people and there's no monarch so it's a republic and elected representatives hold most of the power so it's a (representative) democracy.
    - queuebert 2y ago
      Do you think we the people chose the presidential candidates we keep having? There are multiple levels of representation, and all of them are tainted by special interests and partisanship. The primary system can choose candidates however they wish -- the Constitution does not specify the method [1]. A Democratic challenger to Biden this time was blatantly refused ballot access in many states. Backroom deals can cause good candidates to drop out and support worse candidates (see Buttigieg dropping out in 2020 and supporting Biden, and then Biden appoints him SecTrans). Kamala Harris was among the worst performers in the 2020 Democratic primary, but for some reason she was chosen (not elected, mind you, but chosen by Biden's team) as Biden's running mate, so now the Democrats have no good choices. The Electoral College is winner-take-all in many places and the congressional districts are often gerrymandered to completely eliminate representation of the minority party. For example, Nashville had a Democrat representative, but after redistricting the city was split like a pizza among three mostly rural GOP districts to completely eliminate its member of Congress [2]. It is the capital of the state and largest city but has no member of Congress now. I'm glad you have such a positive view of US democracy, but many of us living here are extremely worried about our trajectory. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_primary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_pri... 2. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2022-11-04/nashville-how-tennessees-blue-island-was-lost-in-a-sea-of-red https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2022-11-04/na...
    - MichaelNolan 2y ago
      > Question: where does the idea that democracy and republic are incompatible comes from? It’s just a retort that American conservatives like to say whenever American liberals mention how undemocratic/unfair the electoral college or the senate is. There’s no real historical substance to the phrase. It only became common to hear after the 2000 and 2016 elections where republicans won the presidency but received fewer total votes, the same scenario which almsot happened in 2020 and could very well happen in 2024.

jowea 2y ago

Surely those bad actors were motivated by profits? The shareholders might not have voted for a "profits over safety" motion but the entire system created the incentives that led to bad actors acquiring their positions and doing bad stuff. And the system here is shareholder focused capitalism. Although I agree this could happen in other economic system too, in a communist system it could be simply an order from above for example.

agos 2y ago

I would hope that today's planes are safer than 40 years ago!

anthk 2y ago

Who cares about the USSR, a system who basically turned into Soviet (council) based modern era overnight from feudalism without stepping inside Enlightenment. Of course, it didn't end well. I'm talking about America, with a so-called democracy far older than the USSR. Regulations? New Deal? Wisdom over centuries? What's that? That doesn't make happy my shareholders, so forget that, right? Said this, Boeing it's a disaster.

queuebert 2y ago
> I'm talking about America, with a so-called democracy far older than the USSR Technically America is not a democracy -- it's a federal republic composed of states with widely differing interpretations of democracy.
- jowea 2y ago
  Question: where does the idea that democracy and republic are incompatible comes from? I keep hearing this am curious where it started. Is it because the Founding Fathers wanted aristocratic elements to keep popular will at bay? To me the USA is obviously a (or maybe the) federal democratic republic. There is no contradiction. Sovereignity resides in the people and there's no monarch so it's a republic and elected representatives hold most of the power so it's a (representative) democracy.
  - queuebert 2y ago
    Do you think we the people chose the presidential candidates we keep having? There are multiple levels of representation, and all of them are tainted by special interests and partisanship. The primary system can choose candidates however they wish -- the Constitution does not specify the method [1]. A Democratic challenger to Biden this time was blatantly refused ballot access in many states. Backroom deals can cause good candidates to drop out and support worse candidates (see Buttigieg dropping out in 2020 and supporting Biden, and then Biden appoints him SecTrans). Kamala Harris was among the worst performers in the 2020 Democratic primary, but for some reason she was chosen (not elected, mind you, but chosen by Biden's team) as Biden's running mate, so now the Democrats have no good choices. The Electoral College is winner-take-all in many places and the congressional districts are often gerrymandered to completely eliminate representation of the minority party. For example, Nashville had a Democrat representative, but after redistricting the city was split like a pizza among three mostly rural GOP districts to completely eliminate its member of Congress [2]. It is the capital of the state and largest city but has no member of Congress now. I'm glad you have such a positive view of US democracy, but many of us living here are extremely worried about our trajectory. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_primary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_pri... 2. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2022-11-04/nashville-how-tennessees-blue-island-was-lost-in-a-sea-of-red https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2022-11-04/na...
  - MichaelNolan 2y ago
    > Question: where does the idea that democracy and republic are incompatible comes from? It’s just a retort that American conservatives like to say whenever American liberals mention how undemocratic/unfair the electoral college or the senate is. There’s no real historical substance to the phrase. It only became common to hear after the 2000 and 2016 elections where republicans won the presidency but received fewer total votes, the same scenario which almsot happened in 2020 and could very well happen in 2024.