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The cost of 50AH Li-Ion batteries is getting close to the point where they may start to compete with Lead acid for gas powered cars.

by ss64 2y ago

catlikesshrimp 2y ago
The environment be damned: Regarding price / energy density, yes. They even have weight / energy density advantage. But Lithium batteries can't be recycled. Saying "We are almost there" and "The future looks bright about it" is "moving fast and breaking things" again
- justahuman74 2y ago
  They can be recycled, its just currently more expensive than the post-product
- bryzaguy 2y ago
  I thought they could be recycled but at the moment it’s cheaper to mine. Is that not true?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- mrob 2y ago
  Recovering lithium from batteries is not cost effective compared with mining new lithium. However, battery recycling is possible and still worth doing, because it recovers more valuable metals such as cobalt or copper.
  - oulipo 2y ago
    And before recycling, reusing! This is why at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)
- philipkglass 2y ago
  "Green Li-ion Marks the Opening of its First Commercial-Scale Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Plant in Oklahoma" https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240618645137/en/Green-Li-ion-Marks-the-Opening-of-its-First-Commercial-Scale-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Recycling-Plant-in-Oklahoma https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240618645137/en/Gre...
  - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
    I was wrong for posting what really means "technically not possible" The real barrier for recycling waste is sustainability. This is the reason why e.g. TETRABRIK is considered recyclable, but it is actually not (I am posting about this parallel because it has been completely understood for several years) Anything can be recycled if we are pedantic. But will it actually stop generating waste? (or will they be silently exported ignored?) Will subsidies be sustainable? (not it even asking if it can be profitable) In reality, the "recyclable" brand is for the most part greenwashing. Now, the business ad about a venture capital bussiness you posted is nothing new. Last year there were 5 such touted recycling plants in Latin America, already. One of them is located in Costa Rica. Costa Rica doesn't have a Lithium battery waste issue. There, the electric cars are very few (and people who got them already want out), there are no electricity storage facilities. I am guessing here that they will import a ton (hundreds of tons) of waste from "Somewhere else" I am including an article on battery recycling that is easy to read. It is only 40 pages long. https://archive.ph/wip/XB8hw https://archive.ph/wip/XB8hw And, for more downvotes: Lithium batteries are as recyclable as a TETRAPAK: still generating waste, most of the time all of it ends up as waste.
- jjoonathan 2y ago
  They can absolutely be recycled, lol.
- robocat 2y ago
  Lead Acid batteries must get replaced every few years. An equivalent LiIon battery would not need to be replaced so quickly. So at some crossover point the environmental cost of X * recyclable Lead acid batteries is higher than LiIon batteries.
  - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
    Absolutely. Lead acid will be replaced with another chemistry. My concern is only about the environment. I developed the post some more https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40878252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40878252
Aurornis 2y ago
Lithium batteries still have limitations with charging at low temperatures. OEMs can design systems that will warm the battery up to a temperature where it can be charged after the car is started, but it’s not nearly as simple as dropping a lead-acid battery in.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  It isn't that simple today, but it can be. Integrate the new-fangled battery (of whatever specific chemistry), the BMS, and the heater into a box with just two posts on top (just like lead acid batteries have had for over a century). It can be designed to take care of itself. And if it's cheap enough to produce and sell, and offers good enough performance over its normal usable lifespan, then it doesn't need a diagnostic interface for sorting out issues any more than a lead acid car battery does today.
silverquiet 2y ago
I looked at it and couldn’t find any that offered enough cranking amps. I’m not sure how easy it would be to design a lifepo4 battery for the application.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  There are some out there. The one that comes to mind is Dakota Lithium. They have a few options with 1000 CCA.
- Panzer04 2y ago
  Lithium batteries are more than capable of starting cars, and at a fraction of the size (just look up "car starters" and the like on Amazon - those are usually a tiny lithium battery that you pull 50c from). The thing is they are usually much pricier for an equivalent size battery and have problems in the cold that make them unsuitable in some climates.
rgmerk 2y ago
“The cost of gasoline is coming down to the point where gasoline-powered lanterns may become the lighting of choice for carriages”.
mcswell 2y ago
Most (not all) EVs still have a 12 volt lead-acid battery: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-cars-12-volt-batteries/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-car.... I understand 12 volts, but why not a 12 volt Li battery? I don't know.

The cost of 50AH Li-Ion batteries is getting close to the point where they may start to compete with Lead acid for gas powered cars.

by ss64 2y ago

The cost of 50AH Li-Ion batteries is getting close to the point where they may start to compete with Lead acid for gas powered cars.

catlikesshrimp 2y ago

The environment be damned: Regarding price / energy density, yes. They even have weight / energy density advantage. But Lithium batteries can't be recycled. Saying "We are almost there" and "The future looks bright about it" is "moving fast and breaking things" again

justahuman74 2y ago
They can be recycled, its just currently more expensive than the post-product
bryzaguy 2y ago
I thought they could be recycled but at the moment it’s cheaper to mine. Is that not true?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mrob 2y ago
Recovering lithium from batteries is not cost effective compared with mining new lithium. However, battery recycling is possible and still worth doing, because it recovers more valuable metals such as cobalt or copper.
- oulipo 2y ago
  And before recycling, reusing! This is why at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)
philipkglass 2y ago
"Green Li-ion Marks the Opening of its First Commercial-Scale Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Plant in Oklahoma" https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240618645137/en/Green-Li-ion-Marks-the-Opening-of-its-First-Commercial-Scale-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Recycling-Plant-in-Oklahoma https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240618645137/en/Gre...
- catlikesshrimp 2y ago
  I was wrong for posting what really means "technically not possible" The real barrier for recycling waste is sustainability. This is the reason why e.g. TETRABRIK is considered recyclable, but it is actually not (I am posting about this parallel because it has been completely understood for several years) Anything can be recycled if we are pedantic. But will it actually stop generating waste? (or will they be silently exported ignored?) Will subsidies be sustainable? (not it even asking if it can be profitable) In reality, the "recyclable" brand is for the most part greenwashing. Now, the business ad about a venture capital bussiness you posted is nothing new. Last year there were 5 such touted recycling plants in Latin America, already. One of them is located in Costa Rica. Costa Rica doesn't have a Lithium battery waste issue. There, the electric cars are very few (and people who got them already want out), there are no electricity storage facilities. I am guessing here that they will import a ton (hundreds of tons) of waste from "Somewhere else" I am including an article on battery recycling that is easy to read. It is only 40 pages long. https://archive.ph/wip/XB8hw https://archive.ph/wip/XB8hw And, for more downvotes: Lithium batteries are as recyclable as a TETRAPAK: still generating waste, most of the time all of it ends up as waste.
jjoonathan 2y ago
They can absolutely be recycled, lol.
robocat 2y ago
Lead Acid batteries must get replaced every few years. An equivalent LiIon battery would not need to be replaced so quickly. So at some crossover point the environmental cost of X * recyclable Lead acid batteries is higher than LiIon batteries.
- catlikesshrimp 2y ago
  Absolutely. Lead acid will be replaced with another chemistry. My concern is only about the environment. I developed the post some more https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40878252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40878252

Aurornis 2y ago

Lithium batteries still have limitations with charging at low temperatures. OEMs can design systems that will warm the battery up to a temperature where it can be charged after the car is started, but it’s not nearly as simple as dropping a lead-acid battery in.

ssl-3 2y ago
It isn't that simple today, but it can be. Integrate the new-fangled battery (of whatever specific chemistry), the BMS, and the heater into a box with just two posts on top (just like lead acid batteries have had for over a century). It can be designed to take care of itself. And if it's cheap enough to produce and sell, and offers good enough performance over its normal usable lifespan, then it doesn't need a diagnostic interface for sorting out issues any more than a lead acid car battery does today.

silverquiet 2y ago

I looked at it and couldn’t find any that offered enough cranking amps. I’m not sure how easy it would be to design a lifepo4 battery for the application.

rootusrootus 2y ago
There are some out there. The one that comes to mind is Dakota Lithium. They have a few options with 1000 CCA.
Panzer04 2y ago
Lithium batteries are more than capable of starting cars, and at a fraction of the size (just look up "car starters" and the like on Amazon - those are usually a tiny lithium battery that you pull 50c from). The thing is they are usually much pricier for an equivalent size battery and have problems in the cold that make them unsuitable in some climates.

rgmerk 2y ago

“The cost of gasoline is coming down to the point where gasoline-powered lanterns may become the lighting of choice for carriages”.

mcswell 2y ago

Most (not all) EVs still have a 12 volt lead-acid battery: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-cars-12-volt-batteries/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-car.... I understand 12 volts, but why not a 12 volt Li battery? I don't know.