7 ms·

In the future, when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing. I mean, it's easy to say "just walk (or ride a

In the future, when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing. I mean, it's easy to say "just walk (or ride a bike)" when you're 22 years old and in prime health, but the population in most First World countries is rapidly aging.

jeffbee 2y ago
Many more disabled people are disabled in a way that prevents them from driving a car than in ways that prevent them from walking. There is also a huge class of people who are physically capable of driving but legally barred from it.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    No, it's true. If you're too feeble to walk, you're probably too feeble to drive. Of course, people who are just paralyzed from the waist down are a different story.
    - Turing_Machine 2y ago
      > If you're too feeble to walk, you're probably too feeble to drive. Again: patent nonsense. Do you even know any old people?
      - dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it a lot lately, and often quite badly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40801594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40801594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40794443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40794443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754686 In fact when I scroll back through your recent comments I find it hard to find any that don't break the site guidelines with some sort of aggressive or nasty edge. We have to ban accounts that post like this. This is not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. It has also, unfortunately, been a problem for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39412436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39412436 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29629441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29629441 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22274528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22274528 (Feb 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16767103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16767103 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16761873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16761873 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10831871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10831871 (Jan 2016) I'm not going to ban your account right now because you've been here a long time, but if you want to keep posting here then we need you to properly fix this going forward. That means being respectful and curious, and it also means not being irritable, mean, or any of the other things that lead people into the flamewar style. So if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
A walkable city doesn't preclude driving. In fact it often improves it. If almost everybody is walking or biking or using transit that means there are few other cars and driving becomes much nicer too.
spankalee 2y ago
Old and handicapped people have lived before cars, and in less car-centric cities forever. Walkable cities mainly mean that things are close to you so you _can_ walk to them. Actual car-free areas, like the access-controlled dense old towns in Europe, are possible (if built-out where they don't exist), but not necessarily to be walkable.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]
krisoft 2y ago
"Walkable cities" doesn't mean that everyone is forced to walk everywhere. It means that there are destinations (grocery store, restaurant, pub, library, cinema, hospital etc) you can reach within walking distance without having to play frogger on a highway. They are absolutely a boon to someone old and disabled. They can use assistive devices, public transport, and even cars to get around. I think you have the wrong impression about what "walkable cities" mean.
a_c_s 2y ago
The biggest reason people loose muscle mass as they age is due to lack of use, so a built environment that encourages walking is going to help keep people in shape to walk as they age.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > a built environment that encourages walking is going to help keep people in shape to walk as they age It's the reason New Yorkers live longer [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/29/health/life-expectancy-nyc-chi-atl-richmond.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/29/health/life-e...
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]
addicted 2y ago
Many things incorrect here. Better driving can only get you from 1 curb to another. You still have to walk to your actual destination whether it’s to the other end of the mall, or to your home’s door. In no way is this any worse in a walkable city which will not only allow you to walk everywhere when you’re able, therefore delaying any loss in walking capabilities, but will also include better and more accessible public and private curb to curb transportation. A walkable city will also make the curb to actual destination far more walkable. A walkable city will also mean a lot more options are accessible to the disabled through their wheelchairs, etc.
vdnkh 2y ago
Yeah I wonder what people do, and have done, around the world in walkable communities predating the car. Perhaps people in these communities are on average more mobile into old age because they frequently walked?
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    > They suffered and died. Actually, societies that are more walkable usually have healthier old people and longer lifespans.
    - Turing_Machine 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - SouthGoblin 2y ago
    > They suffered and died. They were (mostly) taken care of by extended multi-generational households. They obviously died and/or suffered to the extent that medical and QoL technology was insufficient. The whole status quo of pensioners migrating to Florida-style retirement community necropolis with a F-150 and a rubber stamped driver license is a modern US-centric phenomenon. You are naming disparate & absurd things as the reason that European like walkable communities are bad for old people, like the difficulties of 1930's cities (or perhaps pre-industrial, you aren't very clear), the difference in landmass between the US and Europe (?) and the fact that there is a small range of disabilities that allow someone to drive and shop to Costco but not to go to a cornershop. The reality is that being old sucks ass, but being old and sedentary (when you can avoid it) sucks worse. I've taken care of multiple senior family members & friends, the ones that were active, i.e walking everywhere, not avoiding stairs completely, have lived longer and happier. Sure, even active people gradually lose the ability to do day-to-day stuff and cars or microcars[1] can help them and other people with mobility concerns, but that's not an argument against walkable places. Making streets non-hostile to pedestrians, having necessities closer to residences and prioritizing public transport makes people stop preferring cars as medium of transport if they don't need it (youngsters). This actually helps with traffic and in turn helps the people that need cars like someone with a rolling walker and arthritis or a delivery van. Implying that people advocating for walkability are heartless youngins that don't care about old people just because you are losing arguments left and right, is actually really unempathetic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=224s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=224s
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing Manhattan is incredibly senior friendly.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  NY is an AARP top-10 most livable city alongside other pedestrian-centric cities like Boston and San Francisco. Orlando and Tulsa conspicuously absent. Aging in car cities sucks.
  - Turing_Machine 2y ago
    [flagged]
david-gpu 2y ago
> In the future, when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing. I am disabled, and like many other disabled people, I can't drive a car. Often times as people age they also lose the ability to drive a car safely. That is precisely why walkable neighborhoods are so important to old and disabled people.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    > WAY more old people can still drive than can walk a mile round trip carrying bags of groceries Groceries are not a mile away when you live in a walkable neighborhood. My grandparents could easily walk to the corner store to buy their daily groceries until they passed away. Chances are that walking a little every day for their whole lives helped them stay in better shape. > I mean, if y'all like "walkable cities" so much, why not just move to one The few walkable neighborhoods where I live are, unsurprisingly, highly desirable and thus unaffordable. In my forties I don't feel like immigrating yet again to another country. > But no, everyone else has to conform to what you think is best The immense majority of the large metropolitan area where I live only allows single family homes to be built. I would like walkable neighborhoods to be made legal again so that offer can meet the existing demand. Don't you worry, car-dependent suburbs are not at any risk of disappearing in North America.

jeffbee 2y ago

Many more disabled people are disabled in a way that prevents them from driving a car than in ways that prevent them from walking. There is also a huge class of people who are physically capable of driving but legally barred from it.

Turing_Machine 2y ago
[flagged]
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  No, it's true. If you're too feeble to walk, you're probably too feeble to drive. Of course, people who are just paralyzed from the waist down are a different story.
  - Turing_Machine 2y ago
    > If you're too feeble to walk, you're probably too feeble to drive. Again: patent nonsense. Do you even know any old people?
    - dang 2y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it a lot lately, and often quite badly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40801594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40801594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40794443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40794443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754686 In fact when I scroll back through your recent comments I find it hard to find any that don't break the site guidelines with some sort of aggressive or nasty edge. We have to ban accounts that post like this. This is not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. It has also, unfortunately, been a problem for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39412436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39412436 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29629441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29629441 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22274528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22274528 (Feb 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16767103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16767103 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16761873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16761873 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10831871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10831871 (Jan 2016) I'm not going to ban your account right now because you've been here a long time, but if you want to keep posting here then we need you to properly fix this going forward. That means being respectful and curious, and it also means not being irritable, mean, or any of the other things that lead people into the flamewar style. So if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

A walkable city doesn't preclude driving. In fact it often improves it. If almost everybody is walking or biking or using transit that means there are few other cars and driving becomes much nicer too.

spankalee 2y ago

Old and handicapped people have lived before cars, and in less car-centric cities forever. Walkable cities mainly mean that things are close to you so you _can_ walk to them. Actual car-free areas, like the access-controlled dense old towns in Europe, are possible (if built-out where they don't exist), but not necessarily to be walkable.

Turing_Machine 2y ago
[flagged]

krisoft 2y ago

"Walkable cities" doesn't mean that everyone is forced to walk everywhere. It means that there are destinations (grocery store, restaurant, pub, library, cinema, hospital etc) you can reach within walking distance without having to play frogger on a highway. They are absolutely a boon to someone old and disabled. They can use assistive devices, public transport, and even cars to get around. I think you have the wrong impression about what "walkable cities" mean.

a_c_s 2y ago

The biggest reason people loose muscle mass as they age is due to lack of use, so a built environment that encourages walking is going to help keep people in shape to walk as they age.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> a built environment that encourages walking is going to help keep people in shape to walk as they age It's the reason New Yorkers live longer [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/29/health/life-expectancy-nyc-chi-atl-richmond.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/29/health/life-e...
Turing_Machine 2y ago
[flagged]

addicted 2y ago

Many things incorrect here. Better driving can only get you from 1 curb to another. You still have to walk to your actual destination whether it’s to the other end of the mall, or to your home’s door. In no way is this any worse in a walkable city which will not only allow you to walk everywhere when you’re able, therefore delaying any loss in walking capabilities, but will also include better and more accessible public and private curb to curb transportation. A walkable city will also make the curb to actual destination far more walkable. A walkable city will also mean a lot more options are accessible to the disabled through their wheelchairs, etc.

vdnkh 2y ago

Yeah I wonder what people do, and have done, around the world in walkable communities predating the car. Perhaps people in these communities are on average more mobile into old age because they frequently walked?

Turing_Machine 2y ago
[flagged]
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  > They suffered and died. Actually, societies that are more walkable usually have healthier old people and longer lifespans.
  - Turing_Machine 2y ago
    [flagged]
- SouthGoblin 2y ago
  > They suffered and died. They were (mostly) taken care of by extended multi-generational households. They obviously died and/or suffered to the extent that medical and QoL technology was insufficient. The whole status quo of pensioners migrating to Florida-style retirement community necropolis with a F-150 and a rubber stamped driver license is a modern US-centric phenomenon. You are naming disparate & absurd things as the reason that European like walkable communities are bad for old people, like the difficulties of 1930's cities (or perhaps pre-industrial, you aren't very clear), the difference in landmass between the US and Europe (?) and the fact that there is a small range of disabilities that allow someone to drive and shop to Costco but not to go to a cornershop. The reality is that being old sucks ass, but being old and sedentary (when you can avoid it) sucks worse. I've taken care of multiple senior family members & friends, the ones that were active, i.e walking everywhere, not avoiding stairs completely, have lived longer and happier. Sure, even active people gradually lose the ability to do day-to-day stuff and cars or microcars[1] can help them and other people with mobility concerns, but that's not an argument against walkable places. Making streets non-hostile to pedestrians, having necessities closer to residences and prioritizing public transport makes people stop preferring cars as medium of transport if they don't need it (youngsters). This actually helps with traffic and in turn helps the people that need cars like someone with a rolling walker and arthritis or a delivery van. Implying that people advocating for walkability are heartless youngins that don't care about old people just because you are losing arguments left and right, is actually really unempathetic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=224s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=224s

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing Manhattan is incredibly senior friendly.

jeffbee 2y ago
NY is an AARP top-10 most livable city alongside other pedestrian-centric cities like Boston and San Francisco. Orlando and Tulsa conspicuously absent. Aging in car cities sucks.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  [flagged]

david-gpu 2y ago

> In the future, when you're old and quite possibly disabled, you might rethink the whole "walkable cities" thing. I am disabled, and like many other disabled people, I can't drive a car. Often times as people age they also lose the ability to drive a car safely. That is precisely why walkable neighborhoods are so important to old and disabled people.

Turing_Machine 2y ago
[flagged]
- david-gpu 2y ago
  > WAY more old people can still drive than can walk a mile round trip carrying bags of groceries Groceries are not a mile away when you live in a walkable neighborhood. My grandparents could easily walk to the corner store to buy their daily groceries until they passed away. Chances are that walking a little every day for their whole lives helped them stay in better shape. > I mean, if y'all like "walkable cities" so much, why not just move to one The few walkable neighborhoods where I live are, unsurprisingly, highly desirable and thus unaffordable. In my forties I don't feel like immigrating yet again to another country. > But no, everyone else has to conform to what you think is best The immense majority of the large metropolitan area where I live only allows single family homes to be built. I would like walkable neighborhoods to be made legal again so that offer can meet the existing demand. Don't you worry, car-dependent suburbs are not at any risk of disappearing in North America.