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I'm not going to make such an assumption, but two reasons people prefer PrEP generally: 1. in sex work, "not using a condom" is an "extra" that clients will pa

I'm not going to make such an assumption, but two reasons people prefer PrEP generally: 1. in sex work, "not using a condom" is an "extra" that clients will pay quite a bit for 2. people who "party and play" tend to be in an altered state of consciousness that biases against use of condoms

justinclift 2y ago
> in sex work, "not using a condom" is an "extra" that clients will pay quite a bit for To me, that is such a weird thing. People literally paying money for something that can damage them for life and may even kill them. Though the same can be said of addictive things (smoking comes to mind), is this some form of that maybe?
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >People literally paying money for something that can damage them for life and may even kill them. You could say the same about sky-diving.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Yep, sure could. :)
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  Risk always entails a premium.
  - mypalmike 2y ago
    Not generally, no. Driving that car with the sketchy suspension is cheaper than getting it fixed.
    - danielxt 2y ago
      it does, because the chances of you needing expensive medical care after using the sketchy vehicle go up
      - thfuran 2y ago
        If you drive faster still in a car that also lacks crumple zones and airbags, your expected medical bill probably decreases.
      - mypalmike 2y ago
        Yes it's easy to strain metaphors.
    - vidarh 2y ago
      This is obtuse. The intent of expressing that if you are paying someone else for a service, it predisposes them to demand a higher price if you're asking them to take additional risks if they have any negotiating power at all was pretty obvious.
      - mypalmike 2y ago
        The discussion was about the additional risk to the customer, not the vendor.
        vidarh 2y ago
        The comment above the one you replied to was. The comment you replied to was not, and it'd be reasonable to suggest it didn't really address what it replied to. But its intent was clear.
    - amyjess 2y ago
      A better analogy would be to buy a '60s sports car that predates nearly all modern safety tech at auction for $$$$$$ instead of just buying a 2024 Corolla with modern safety features.
      - justinclift 2y ago
        The grand parent post said risk _always_ entails a premium. They post you're replying to merely points out they're wrong, as there are examples of it not _always_ entailing a premium. No-one's saying that there aren't examples of risks that do entail a premium.
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      Incorrect. When somebody else takes a risk for you, you have to pay them more than if they are not taking a risk. We pay soldiers more when they are at war than when they are not. People who want to raise money by selling bonds have to pay a higher interest rate if their credit is worse. Etc. Prostitutes would consider unprotected sex more risky, and thus charge more.
- vidarh 2y ago
  People have a risk level they're comfortable with, and sometimes people feel added excitement pushing right up to or past that level, and sometimes they're just happy to pay extra for something they feel is within that risk level if they enjoy it more. We all choose to take risks all the time and often pay for the privilege, sometimes explicitly seeking out the thrill of a risk. I'm guessing what makes this specific scenario weird for you is more likely that this risk doesn't seem worthwhile to you relative to what you get from it (and I agree with that - I've never had an appetite for taking risks with STDs)
- pasquinelli 2y ago
  > To me, that is such a weird thing. i'm confused. are we acting like we don't full-well know that using a condom sucks for everyone involved? it's like wondering why people didn't like using a face mask during covid: because it sucks. that, of course, is independent from whether it's prudent, but if something sucks, it's no surprise when people avoid it, right?
  - sdwr 2y ago
    There's that middle ground!
  - justinclift 2y ago
    > are we acting like we don't full-well know that using a condom sucks for everyone involved? What do you mean "acting"? We all know it reduces the sensitivity. That's the trade off. You feel less pleasure, and your fucking doesn't get to kill you. > it's like wondering why people didn't like using a face mask during covid: because it sucks. Similar analogy. It sucked, but that was a similar trade off. It sucks a bit, but there's less chance it'll kill you or you'll kill others. > it's no surprise when people avoid it, right? I think those people would have to be fucking morons, but sure, morons exist.
- wvh 2y ago
  Maybe you want the real thing. I get that, even though I have never had sex with a prostitute or fall into the risky sex category. I'm not going to go as far as to be childishly disrespectful and say I'd rather die doing the real thing, but I do understand the apprehension of using artificial barriers during the most intimate act know to humankind.
- mock-possum 2y ago
  Yes but it feels good
- sureIy 2y ago
  Being horny also counts as being “in an altered state of consciousness that biases against use of condoms.” As someone who took the condom off in a risky situation recently, there’s no comparison between the on and off feeling. It’s like licking a piece of candy vs crushing it with your teeth and sucking it all at once.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    > As someone who took the condom off in a risky situation recently ... With consent yeah?
isoprophlex 2y ago
[flagged]
- bondarchuk 2y ago
  "why do you use prep when you can use condoms" > "in a state where they prefer to not use condoms" > "maybe they shouldn't do it then" or... they can use prep.
- throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
  Why not just not have sex unless trying to procreate? It's amazing in 2024 this line of discussion is happening. We all know exactly at a individual level what to do and not. We can keep asking "Why not just use a condom?" and see how far that gets us, or actually understand psychology and use patterns and work with what people actually do (good or bad). Same can be said about (illicit) drugs, why not just not do drugs? Simple!
  - seunosewa 2y ago
    It is a well known fact that people (except incels & asexuals) will have sex whether you like it or not. It's part of the human experience. Policy must deal with the real world.
- alwa 2y ago
  You don’t, but people do. And even if they “shouldn’t,” the cost of contracting HIV—which very few people set out intending to do—adds up to an eyewatering sum over a lifetime, no matter who’s paying for it. Not to mention rendering someone, often young, dependent on heavy drugs to stay alive. Forever. Assuming the drugs remain effective. What other risky lifestyle decisions do we advocate to punish that severely? Especially when the technology exists to ameliorate the risk? Wouldn’t it be cool if simulated guns were as fun as real ones? Then your hypothetical person could get drunk and shoot guns all they want, and there’s no problem anymore! So what’s the virtue in leaving the real loaded gun lying around to test their willpower?
- mock-possum 2y ago
  When all it takes is a daily pill, or an injection, to reduce the risks of drunk-driving a motorcycle to practically nil - wouldn’t you want to do it? You don’t even need to wear a helmet, you can just do whatever on your motorcycle and not worry about it. You never have to think to yourself “hoo boy I’m at two beers, and I don’t know, should I have the third? Will that be too many? Am I going to need to get on my motorcycle in an hour? Or will it be more like three hours? What will my blood-alcohol level be at that point? Is this legal? Is this safe?” You can just have fun getting fucked up and driving your motorcycle. Modern medicine has given us this incredible thing, and you’re really going to be like “Naw I don’t know about all that.”
odyssey7 2y ago
It’s not that complicated. A lot of people don’t like condoms, either wearing them or having a partner wear them. PrEP, to many, has rendered condoms unnecessary.
- richie-guix 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - odyssey7 2y ago
    A lot of people out there have managed to get past stigmatizing STIs, viewing bacterial ones as no more remarkable than sinusitis so long as they get tested and treated. Between PrEP and vaccines for hepatitis and HPV, risks for the scariest STIs can be annulled, outside of exceptional, treatment-resistant cases.
    - richie-guix 2y ago
      [flagged]

justinclift 2y ago

> in sex work, "not using a condom" is an "extra" that clients will pay quite a bit for To me, that is such a weird thing. People literally paying money for something that can damage them for life and may even kill them. Though the same can be said of addictive things (smoking comes to mind), is this some form of that maybe?

shiroiushi 2y ago
>People literally paying money for something that can damage them for life and may even kill them. You could say the same about sky-diving.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Yep, sure could. :)
mattmaroon 2y ago
Risk always entails a premium.
- mypalmike 2y ago
  Not generally, no. Driving that car with the sketchy suspension is cheaper than getting it fixed.
  - danielxt 2y ago
    it does, because the chances of you needing expensive medical care after using the sketchy vehicle go up
    - thfuran 2y ago
      If you drive faster still in a car that also lacks crumple zones and airbags, your expected medical bill probably decreases.
    - mypalmike 2y ago
      Yes it's easy to strain metaphors.
  - vidarh 2y ago
    This is obtuse. The intent of expressing that if you are paying someone else for a service, it predisposes them to demand a higher price if you're asking them to take additional risks if they have any negotiating power at all was pretty obvious.
    - mypalmike 2y ago
      The discussion was about the additional risk to the customer, not the vendor.
      - vidarh 2y ago
        The comment above the one you replied to was. The comment you replied to was not, and it'd be reasonable to suggest it didn't really address what it replied to. But its intent was clear.
  - amyjess 2y ago
    A better analogy would be to buy a '60s sports car that predates nearly all modern safety tech at auction for $$$$$$ instead of just buying a 2024 Corolla with modern safety features.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      The grand parent post said risk _always_ entails a premium. They post you're replying to merely points out they're wrong, as there are examples of it not _always_ entailing a premium. No-one's saying that there aren't examples of risks that do entail a premium.
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    Incorrect. When somebody else takes a risk for you, you have to pay them more than if they are not taking a risk. We pay soldiers more when they are at war than when they are not. People who want to raise money by selling bonds have to pay a higher interest rate if their credit is worse. Etc. Prostitutes would consider unprotected sex more risky, and thus charge more.
vidarh 2y ago
People have a risk level they're comfortable with, and sometimes people feel added excitement pushing right up to or past that level, and sometimes they're just happy to pay extra for something they feel is within that risk level if they enjoy it more. We all choose to take risks all the time and often pay for the privilege, sometimes explicitly seeking out the thrill of a risk. I'm guessing what makes this specific scenario weird for you is more likely that this risk doesn't seem worthwhile to you relative to what you get from it (and I agree with that - I've never had an appetite for taking risks with STDs)
pasquinelli 2y ago
> To me, that is such a weird thing. i'm confused. are we acting like we don't full-well know that using a condom sucks for everyone involved? it's like wondering why people didn't like using a face mask during covid: because it sucks. that, of course, is independent from whether it's prudent, but if something sucks, it's no surprise when people avoid it, right?
- sdwr 2y ago
  There's that middle ground!
- justinclift 2y ago
  > are we acting like we don't full-well know that using a condom sucks for everyone involved? What do you mean "acting"? We all know it reduces the sensitivity. That's the trade off. You feel less pleasure, and your fucking doesn't get to kill you. > it's like wondering why people didn't like using a face mask during covid: because it sucks. Similar analogy. It sucked, but that was a similar trade off. It sucks a bit, but there's less chance it'll kill you or you'll kill others. > it's no surprise when people avoid it, right? I think those people would have to be fucking morons, but sure, morons exist.
wvh 2y ago
Maybe you want the real thing. I get that, even though I have never had sex with a prostitute or fall into the risky sex category. I'm not going to go as far as to be childishly disrespectful and say I'd rather die doing the real thing, but I do understand the apprehension of using artificial barriers during the most intimate act know to humankind.
mock-possum 2y ago
Yes but it feels good
sureIy 2y ago
Being horny also counts as being “in an altered state of consciousness that biases against use of condoms.” As someone who took the condom off in a risky situation recently, there’s no comparison between the on and off feeling. It’s like licking a piece of candy vs crushing it with your teeth and sucking it all at once.
- justinclift 2y ago
  > As someone who took the condom off in a risky situation recently ... With consent yeah?

isoprophlex 2y ago

[flagged]

bondarchuk 2y ago
"why do you use prep when you can use condoms" > "in a state where they prefer to not use condoms" > "maybe they shouldn't do it then" or... they can use prep.
throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
Why not just not have sex unless trying to procreate? It's amazing in 2024 this line of discussion is happening. We all know exactly at a individual level what to do and not. We can keep asking "Why not just use a condom?" and see how far that gets us, or actually understand psychology and use patterns and work with what people actually do (good or bad). Same can be said about (illicit) drugs, why not just not do drugs? Simple!
- seunosewa 2y ago
  It is a well known fact that people (except incels & asexuals) will have sex whether you like it or not. It's part of the human experience. Policy must deal with the real world.
alwa 2y ago
You don’t, but people do. And even if they “shouldn’t,” the cost of contracting HIV—which very few people set out intending to do—adds up to an eyewatering sum over a lifetime, no matter who’s paying for it. Not to mention rendering someone, often young, dependent on heavy drugs to stay alive. Forever. Assuming the drugs remain effective. What other risky lifestyle decisions do we advocate to punish that severely? Especially when the technology exists to ameliorate the risk? Wouldn’t it be cool if simulated guns were as fun as real ones? Then your hypothetical person could get drunk and shoot guns all they want, and there’s no problem anymore! So what’s the virtue in leaving the real loaded gun lying around to test their willpower?
mock-possum 2y ago
When all it takes is a daily pill, or an injection, to reduce the risks of drunk-driving a motorcycle to practically nil - wouldn’t you want to do it? You don’t even need to wear a helmet, you can just do whatever on your motorcycle and not worry about it. You never have to think to yourself “hoo boy I’m at two beers, and I don’t know, should I have the third? Will that be too many? Am I going to need to get on my motorcycle in an hour? Or will it be more like three hours? What will my blood-alcohol level be at that point? Is this legal? Is this safe?” You can just have fun getting fucked up and driving your motorcycle. Modern medicine has given us this incredible thing, and you’re really going to be like “Naw I don’t know about all that.”

odyssey7 2y ago

It’s not that complicated. A lot of people don’t like condoms, either wearing them or having a partner wear them. PrEP, to many, has rendered condoms unnecessary.

richie-guix 2y ago
[flagged]
- odyssey7 2y ago
  A lot of people out there have managed to get past stigmatizing STIs, viewing bacterial ones as no more remarkable than sinusitis so long as they get tested and treated. Between PrEP and vaccines for hepatitis and HPV, risks for the scariest STIs can be annulled, outside of exceptional, treatment-resistant cases.
  - richie-guix 2y ago
    [flagged]