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The paradox of living in this day and age is witnessing astonishing advances in science, while enduring the increasing levels of anti-intellectualism that perva

The paradox of living in this day and age is witnessing astonishing advances in science, while enduring the increasing levels of anti-intellectualism that pervades society like a cancer.

vt85 2y ago
[dead]
teh_infallible 2y ago
I suppose that’s another way of saying we’re seeing controversial advances in science.
- javawizard 2y ago
  Not sure what you're saying, can you elaborate?
- speed_spread 2y ago
  Anything new can be controversial if you're allergic to change.
- oopsallmagic 2y ago
  You don't need to take HIV medication, but you don't need to prevent the rest of us from enjoying the benefits of modernity, too.
  - beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
    I think you'll find certain parties on both sides secretly want things to be framed as controversial to drum up the useful idiots to their cause or open their checkbook.
yieldcrv 2y ago
its only been a small gap in time where anti-intellectualism was segregated from society. you could always just be in your tiny circles of elite higher education. only thing thats changed this time is anti-intellectualism is given a microphone.
EnigmaFlare 2y ago
I think all the really obvious and influential products of science and technology happened in the 20th century and now we're so comfortable because of those that we take it for granted. Then people find reasons to hate it because they forget how bad things were without it (previous generations). Same goes for political stability. Another aspect is that a lot of intellectualism is really activism with "intellectuals" trying to impede other people's lives for the sake of some arrogant moral purpose.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > now we're so comfortable because of those that we take it for granted. Then people find reasons to hate it because they forget how bad things were without it (previous generations). Same goes for political stability. I'm not sure that most people are really all that comfortable. They're a lot more distracted though certainly. I think there are a lot of different reasons people today have a problem with science and technology. Some are scared of it. Some just don't trust it, which can be entirely fair depending on the degree/situation. Some see that the regulations, oversight, and accountability we expect and depend on to keep us safe aren't working like they used to or like we thought they would. Mostly I think people see not only what we've gained, but also what we've lost and could/should have again. Reliable and repairable products that weren't designed to exploit and work against the interests of the person who paid for them for just one example. We've had many trade offs, where they've improved things in some areas while making them worse in others. It hasn't always worked out in our favor. It's also frustrating when you see that amazing things are now possible, but we can't have them because of politics, or greed, or fear of change. Personally, I hope people never stop wanting and expecting better from science and technology. Especially in those cases where what previous generations had was better than what we're expected to accept today or where we've created problems previous generations never had to put up with.
  - armada651 2y ago
    > I think there are a lot of different reasons people today have a problem with science and technology. Some are scared of it. Some just don't trust it, which can be entirely fair depending on the degree/situation. Some see that the regulations, oversight, and accountability we expect and depend on to keep us safe aren't working like they used to or like we thought they would. We often forget that many people have been genuinely negatively affected by technology or science or know someone who has. Let's not forget that many technological and medical advances have come at a real human cost. People have been poisoned by harmful chemicals either during their occupation or because an entire community has been exposed. Entire communities have been devastated by the opioid epidemic which the medical community is directly responsible for. Not to mention the countless people who have lost their jobs or will lose them soon to automation. There are people with genuine concerns about the way science and technology are heading and pretending anyone skeptical of modern science is simply uneducated or stupid is extremely counter-productive.
autoexec 2y ago
In the US you also have situations where all that science means that effective treatments exist but they are entirely out of your reach because of insane healthcare costs. I can't imagine having to watch a loved one slowly die knowing that you are surrounded by doctors who could save them if you only had the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars they demand or if you'd been living in basically any other developed nation on Earth.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  That's because we subsidize the world by investing in a massive portion of the science and tech for producing medicines. Then when those costs are recouped via sales to our consumers the whole world laughs at us while ironically many of them would be up shits creek without the advancements they get to piggy back off of. Healthcare and medicine needs overhauling but it's maddening watching these downstream foreign benefactors damn the golden goose they'd be fucked without.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    I don't think it's necessarily true that we need to keep letting Americans needlessly die due to unaffordable healthcare in order to maintain our nation's lead in innovation. We should be able to continue to invest in medical science without continuing to fall behind other developed nations in actual health outcomes for patients. There are certainly many opportunities to drastically reduce the costs of healthcare without impacting the budgets for research.
    - Aerroon 2y ago
      Does the US actually fall behind other nations in health outcomes? The US has two big factors working against them: much more widespread obesity (and the level of morbid obesity) and the insurance bureaucracy. These two factors should negatively impact health statistics without the treatments being worse.
      - autoexec 2y ago
tonymet 2y ago
what does this have to do with the story?
cm2187 2y ago
Some of the anti-vax movement during covid (I presume that's what you have in mind) is anti-intellectualism but some of it is not. You can hold both opinions that an mRNA vaccine is an incredible new technology that has enormous potential, while a new technology that had never been tested on humans shouldn't be forced on people for whom the benefit was marginal at best (kids, healthy population under 50, people who already had covid). And you can hold both opinions that health authorities clearly misbehaved or acted in a moronic way (lying about masks, origin of the virus, forcing vaccines on people who had already been infected, telling you you can't go outside, except if it's to protest for BLM, etc) while acknowledging that coming up with a vaccine against a new virus in only weeks is a technological wonder. It's absurd to be systematically anti-intellectual, but also some healthy skepticism is well warranted.
- account42 2y ago
  Right, a lot of the problem with anti-intellectualism is actually the people who define their viewpoint as The Science and try to shut down those who disagree as being "against the science".
- Propelloni 2y ago
  It's like poker. You can have this lucky draw on the river, but most often you don't. You cannot built your strategy on lucky draws and those people weren't, even when not everything worked out. You and I are still alive, so I think they did a good job.
tim333 2y ago
I'm not so sure about rising levels of anti-intellectualism overall if you look globally. I looked at some stats over my lifetime and globally from Our World in Data 67m people had post secondary education in 1965 vs about 1.07bn now so up 16x. (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-level-education https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-level-ed...) Also in the 1970s the Cambodians were searching out their intellectuals and executing them and the Chinese did a slightly less extreme version in the cultural revolution whereas now you get none of that and China is becoming a science superpower. Admittedly some in the US seem to be pushing antivax and climate denial but it's not like the past events. Also it seems a bit local. I'm a Brit for example and see almost no climate denial here. A bit of antivax maybe.
__rito__ 2y ago
It's because of absolute penetration of social media in all levels of society everywhere. It makes the most stupid and uneducated person think that they are equal to the top minds of present day in many aspects.
ted_dunning 2y ago
There is the metaphorical irony as well. That cancer of anti-intellectualism is often caused by the viral misinformation.
dang 2y ago
Ok, but please don't post generic tangents to HN. They make the threads less interesting, more tedious, and (possibly as a result) tend to turn them nasty.

The paradox of living in this day and age is witnessing astonishing advances in science, while enduring the increasing levels of anti-intellectualism that pervades society like a cancer.

vt85 2y ago

[dead]

teh_infallible 2y ago

I suppose that’s another way of saying we’re seeing controversial advances in science.

javawizard 2y ago
Not sure what you're saying, can you elaborate?
speed_spread 2y ago
Anything new can be controversial if you're allergic to change.
oopsallmagic 2y ago
You don't need to take HIV medication, but you don't need to prevent the rest of us from enjoying the benefits of modernity, too.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  I think you'll find certain parties on both sides secretly want things to be framed as controversial to drum up the useful idiots to their cause or open their checkbook.

yieldcrv 2y ago

its only been a small gap in time where anti-intellectualism was segregated from society. you could always just be in your tiny circles of elite higher education. only thing thats changed this time is anti-intellectualism is given a microphone.

EnigmaFlare 2y ago

I think all the really obvious and influential products of science and technology happened in the 20th century and now we're so comfortable because of those that we take it for granted. Then people find reasons to hate it because they forget how bad things were without it (previous generations). Same goes for political stability. Another aspect is that a lot of intellectualism is really activism with "intellectuals" trying to impede other people's lives for the sake of some arrogant moral purpose.

autoexec 2y ago
> now we're so comfortable because of those that we take it for granted. Then people find reasons to hate it because they forget how bad things were without it (previous generations). Same goes for political stability. I'm not sure that most people are really all that comfortable. They're a lot more distracted though certainly. I think there are a lot of different reasons people today have a problem with science and technology. Some are scared of it. Some just don't trust it, which can be entirely fair depending on the degree/situation. Some see that the regulations, oversight, and accountability we expect and depend on to keep us safe aren't working like they used to or like we thought they would. Mostly I think people see not only what we've gained, but also what we've lost and could/should have again. Reliable and repairable products that weren't designed to exploit and work against the interests of the person who paid for them for just one example. We've had many trade offs, where they've improved things in some areas while making them worse in others. It hasn't always worked out in our favor. It's also frustrating when you see that amazing things are now possible, but we can't have them because of politics, or greed, or fear of change. Personally, I hope people never stop wanting and expecting better from science and technology. Especially in those cases where what previous generations had was better than what we're expected to accept today or where we've created problems previous generations never had to put up with.
- armada651 2y ago
  > I think there are a lot of different reasons people today have a problem with science and technology. Some are scared of it. Some just don't trust it, which can be entirely fair depending on the degree/situation. Some see that the regulations, oversight, and accountability we expect and depend on to keep us safe aren't working like they used to or like we thought they would. We often forget that many people have been genuinely negatively affected by technology or science or know someone who has. Let's not forget that many technological and medical advances have come at a real human cost. People have been poisoned by harmful chemicals either during their occupation or because an entire community has been exposed. Entire communities have been devastated by the opioid epidemic which the medical community is directly responsible for. Not to mention the countless people who have lost their jobs or will lose them soon to automation. There are people with genuine concerns about the way science and technology are heading and pretending anyone skeptical of modern science is simply uneducated or stupid is extremely counter-productive.

autoexec 2y ago

In the US you also have situations where all that science means that effective treatments exist but they are entirely out of your reach because of insane healthcare costs. I can't imagine having to watch a loved one slowly die knowing that you are surrounded by doctors who could save them if you only had the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars they demand or if you'd been living in basically any other developed nation on Earth.

beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
That's because we subsidize the world by investing in a massive portion of the science and tech for producing medicines. Then when those costs are recouped via sales to our consumers the whole world laughs at us while ironically many of them would be up shits creek without the advancements they get to piggy back off of. Healthcare and medicine needs overhauling but it's maddening watching these downstream foreign benefactors damn the golden goose they'd be fucked without.
- autoexec 2y ago
  I don't think it's necessarily true that we need to keep letting Americans needlessly die due to unaffordable healthcare in order to maintain our nation's lead in innovation. We should be able to continue to invest in medical science without continuing to fall behind other developed nations in actual health outcomes for patients. There are certainly many opportunities to drastically reduce the costs of healthcare without impacting the budgets for research.
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    Does the US actually fall behind other nations in health outcomes? The US has two big factors working against them: much more widespread obesity (and the level of morbid obesity) and the insurance bureaucracy. These two factors should negatively impact health statistics without the treatments being worse.
    - autoexec 2y ago

tonymet 2y ago

what does this have to do with the story?

cm2187 2y ago

Some of the anti-vax movement during covid (I presume that's what you have in mind) is anti-intellectualism but some of it is not. You can hold both opinions that an mRNA vaccine is an incredible new technology that has enormous potential, while a new technology that had never been tested on humans shouldn't be forced on people for whom the benefit was marginal at best (kids, healthy population under 50, people who already had covid). And you can hold both opinions that health authorities clearly misbehaved or acted in a moronic way (lying about masks, origin of the virus, forcing vaccines on people who had already been infected, telling you you can't go outside, except if it's to protest for BLM, etc) while acknowledging that coming up with a vaccine against a new virus in only weeks is a technological wonder. It's absurd to be systematically anti-intellectual, but also some healthy skepticism is well warranted.

account42 2y ago
Right, a lot of the problem with anti-intellectualism is actually the people who define their viewpoint as The Science and try to shut down those who disagree as being "against the science".
Propelloni 2y ago
It's like poker. You can have this lucky draw on the river, but most often you don't. You cannot built your strategy on lucky draws and those people weren't, even when not everything worked out. You and I are still alive, so I think they did a good job.

tim333 2y ago

I'm not so sure about rising levels of anti-intellectualism overall if you look globally. I looked at some stats over my lifetime and globally from Our World in Data 67m people had post secondary education in 1965 vs about 1.07bn now so up 16x. (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-level-education https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-level-ed...) Also in the 1970s the Cambodians were searching out their intellectuals and executing them and the Chinese did a slightly less extreme version in the cultural revolution whereas now you get none of that and China is becoming a science superpower. Admittedly some in the US seem to be pushing antivax and climate denial but it's not like the past events. Also it seems a bit local. I'm a Brit for example and see almost no climate denial here. A bit of antivax maybe.

__rito__ 2y ago

It's because of absolute penetration of social media in all levels of society everywhere. It makes the most stupid and uneducated person think that they are equal to the top minds of present day in many aspects.

ted_dunning 2y ago

There is the metaphorical irony as well. That cancer of anti-intellectualism is often caused by the viral misinformation.

dang 2y ago

Ok, but please don't post generic tangents to HN. They make the threads less interesting, more tedious, and (possibly as a result) tend to turn them nasty.