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> Pro tip: use "win the lottery" instead to avoid the negative connotation of injury or death. I very much appreciate the attempt to reframe it positively. But

> Pro tip: use "win the lottery" instead to avoid the negative connotation of injury or death. I very much appreciate the attempt to reframe it positively. But personally, if I win the lottery, I’m still doing a handover. The key thing with “hit by a bus” is, no matter what your personality, you don’t have any time to prepare. Thats why you’ve got to get the information out there today. Unfortunately I’ve yet to find a positive spin that has those same connotations.

devsda 2y ago
Depends on the other person, but "gets hit by a bus or abducted by aliens" or some other (movie) trope doesn't sound too bad if it's an informal discussion.
- serial_dev 2y ago
  I dislike the "hit by the bus" not because it hypothetically kills a team mate, but because it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died apart from the fact that only you know how to do x and y. "Abducted by an alien" is so absurd, it takes away all that and replaces it with something potentially fun and an experience of a lifetime. I also very much prefer the lottery example, and the fact that someone on HN would still do a handover doesn't change that fact.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    if there is a backup plan then management can care about your death. If there isn't one and you die they can't care or enough to even attend your funeral as neeping things running will consume them.
  - Ma8ee 2y ago
    > the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. While it might be uncomfortable to be reminded of, it is in most cases true. The company isn’t your family or your friends, and most managers adhere to the doctrine that the single important responsibility of the company is to create value for the stock holders.
  - wegfawefgawefg 2y ago
    Not that I am trying to make you upset, but I personally find this level of sensetivity in people annoying. Life and death metaphors are my right to enjoy and share irreverently as the mortal being I am.
    - arcanemachiner 2y ago
      I died reading this comment.
      - bombela 2y ago
        But did you hand over your knowledge first?
    - mnsc 2y ago
      So you would be OK if I used "abducted and gang raped for so long that you come out seemingly alive and physically intact but your mind has broke and you enter a catatonic state and can't do a handover" as an example? Because if you are not one of those "sensitive people" you should be able to focus on the "can't do a handover" part of the scenario and not get caught up in the gruesome part? And before you ask, yes I enjoy being overly graphic like this on the pseudonumoyous internet to exaggerate my points but I wouldn't do this irl. That is hypocritical of me.
      - mirekrusin 2y ago
        Depends if aliens were attractive?
        mnsc 2y ago
        Yeah I realize that "abducted" could suggest aliens, I was thinking more along the lines of Mexican drug cartel style abduction where your raping and being left alive is a wake up call to your partner in the police force that has turned the wrong stones. And the dudes doing the raping is not pretty. But the point is you are not able to do a proper handover, remember?
  - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
    > This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died I don’t agree that the phrase implies that at all.
  - tome 2y ago
    > This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died apart from the fact that only you know how to do x and y. An alternative interpretation is "we have to keep doing x and y to earn our living, and it's doubly difficult because not only did you know how to do them but we're all having difficulty coping with your passing".
  - JaumeGreen 2y ago
    People would care at a personal level, but the show must go on. I had to take a sudden leave the week before, and my coworkers, and boss cared at a personal level. And while most of my tasks were taken care of by them some weren't, and I had to rush Monday morning when I got back. This talk is not about personal feelings, even though it could include "do a memorial for the lost person", but it's about all the needed work that must go on on any scenario. You should understand that people should keep going on their lifes once you are not there, and that is good. If they think kindly of you after your passing depends on your relationship during life, not on any company preparation scenario.
  - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    > it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service Story from this week: Manager at large-ish IT support company, visibly distraught, tells their manager that one of her direct reports got cancer. Response: "Oh, and I thought something bad happened, like the direct report quit."
    - manfre 2y ago
      Sorry you have to work with a toxic manager.
      - jpc0 2y ago
        Got cancer ranges from will be out of office a few times a month for a few months to a year through to won't be here next month. You are reading a lot out of words read on an internet screen. This manager may very well be toxic, they may also just not be able to express emotion in the same way and very well went above and beyond putting everything in place for said employee to receive all the medical support they need, mental and physical. We don't know and for all we know OP is in a bad space and completely misread the situation. This whole comment is devil's advocate, you can make the same argument for the exact opposite and of course your personal experience matters but leave the airing of dirty laundry out of public forums and if I do the same I encourage anyone to call me out on it.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >because it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. That will exactly be the key worry of the management. We've had team members lost like that - and that was the worry. They'll still feel sorry, say their condolensces, and might even go to the funeral, but in the end, the work continues - almost immediately.
cryptonector 2y ago
"Key person risk" captures all the possibilities.
arendtio 2y ago
> But personally, if I win the lottery, I’m still doing a handover. I wonder why we talk about such rare events. People get sick, and burnout is very common, too. Some people look for a new job, and when they find it, they call in sick just to not have to handle all the stress of their old job. There are plenty of more likely examples of not having a handover.
crabmusket 2y ago
"Taken by the Rapture"?
DanHulton 2y ago
"Doing a handover" won't save a lot of companies. There's no level of "handover" that will save some of the shops I've been in, that just 100% rely on one team member to handle _everything._ Even if they took a _month_ to try to pass along along their accumulated knowledge, there's ingrained engineering practices and processes that all boil down to "Go ask Chris." Honestly, I'd say that if you're able to do a handover in two weeks, and that covers everything it needs to cover? Well, then probably the handover isn't _actually_ necessary, and anything you cover in those two weeks could probably be figured out by a reasonably competent teammate. Knowledge is rarely the issue, being a person-shaped load-bearing component for your team _is._ (But also, good on you for taking a bit of time to make sure your old co-workers aren't left in the lurch. It probably also gives a bit of time to consider what you _really_ want to do with the winnings, so as not to blow it all in the first year like a lot of lottery winners do.)
- chipdart 2y ago
  > "Doing a handover" won't save a lot of companies. There's no level of "handover" that will save some of the shops I've been in, that just 100% rely on one team member to handle _everything._ Even if they took a _month_ to try to pass along along their accumulated knowledge, there's ingrained engineering practices and processes that all boil down to "Go ask Chris." That might very well be true, but to a manager having a handover means the problem of loss of institutional knowledge is solved, and any subsequent problem due to lack of context or loss of institutional knowledge is avoidable and caused by poor handovers.
coldtea 2y ago
>But personally, if I win the lottery, I’m still doing a handover. How much time are you devoting to it? Enough for the project to ship, which could take months or a year, or merely enough to hastily give some other devs a breakdown of the thing, and "so long suckers" / hope for the best? And, while you might (still do a handover), would others?
ijidak 2y ago
- Kidnapped to paradise - Abducted by beautiful aliens
RadiozRadioz 2y ago
I don't like "win the lottery" because it implies that the sole reason for the person staying is money; it devalues their loyalty to the team. Everyone's working for money in reality of course, but to me it doesn't feel team-spirited to call it out.
euroderf 2y ago
Good documentation will commit as much as possible to paper: to turn the implicit into the explicit. But then ya gotta keep it up to date.

devsda 2y ago

Depends on the other person, but "gets hit by a bus or abducted by aliens" or some other (movie) trope doesn't sound too bad if it's an informal discussion.

serial_dev 2y ago
I dislike the "hit by the bus" not because it hypothetically kills a team mate, but because it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died apart from the fact that only you know how to do x and y. "Abducted by an alien" is so absurd, it takes away all that and replaces it with something potentially fun and an experience of a lifetime. I also very much prefer the lottery example, and the fact that someone on HN would still do a handover doesn't change that fact.
- bluGill 2y ago
  if there is a backup plan then management can care about your death. If there isn't one and you die they can't care or enough to even attend your funeral as neeping things running will consume them.
- Ma8ee 2y ago
  > the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. While it might be uncomfortable to be reminded of, it is in most cases true. The company isn’t your family or your friends, and most managers adhere to the doctrine that the single important responsibility of the company is to create value for the stock holders.
- wegfawefgawefg 2y ago
  Not that I am trying to make you upset, but I personally find this level of sensetivity in people annoying. Life and death metaphors are my right to enjoy and share irreverently as the mortal being I am.
  - arcanemachiner 2y ago
    I died reading this comment.
    - bombela 2y ago
      But did you hand over your knowledge first?
  - mnsc 2y ago
    So you would be OK if I used "abducted and gang raped for so long that you come out seemingly alive and physically intact but your mind has broke and you enter a catatonic state and can't do a handover" as an example? Because if you are not one of those "sensitive people" you should be able to focus on the "can't do a handover" part of the scenario and not get caught up in the gruesome part? And before you ask, yes I enjoy being overly graphic like this on the pseudonumoyous internet to exaggerate my points but I wouldn't do this irl. That is hypocritical of me.
    - mirekrusin 2y ago
      Depends if aliens were attractive?
      - mnsc 2y ago
        Yeah I realize that "abducted" could suggest aliens, I was thinking more along the lines of Mexican drug cartel style abduction where your raping and being left alive is a wake up call to your partner in the police force that has turned the wrong stones. And the dudes doing the raping is not pretty. But the point is you are not able to do a proper handover, remember?
- yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
  > This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died I don’t agree that the phrase implies that at all.
- tome 2y ago
  > This phrase is a reminder that nobody would care if you died apart from the fact that only you know how to do x and y. An alternative interpretation is "we have to keep doing x and y to earn our living, and it's doubly difficult because not only did you know how to do them but we're all having difficulty coping with your passing".
- JaumeGreen 2y ago
  People would care at a personal level, but the show must go on. I had to take a sudden leave the week before, and my coworkers, and boss cared at a personal level. And while most of my tasks were taken care of by them some weren't, and I had to rush Monday morning when I got back. This talk is not about personal feelings, even though it could include "do a memorial for the lost person", but it's about all the needed work that must go on on any scenario. You should understand that people should keep going on their lifes once you are not there, and that is good. If they think kindly of you after your passing depends on your relationship during life, not on any company preparation scenario.
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  > it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service Story from this week: Manager at large-ish IT support company, visibly distraught, tells their manager that one of her direct reports got cancer. Response: "Oh, and I thought something bad happened, like the direct report quit."
  - manfre 2y ago
    Sorry you have to work with a toxic manager.
    - jpc0 2y ago
      Got cancer ranges from will be out of office a few times a month for a few months to a year through to won't be here next month. You are reading a lot out of words read on an internet screen. This manager may very well be toxic, they may also just not be able to express emotion in the same way and very well went above and beyond putting everything in place for said employee to receive all the medical support they need, mental and physical. We don't know and for all we know OP is in a bad space and completely misread the situation. This whole comment is devil's advocate, you can make the same argument for the exact opposite and of course your personal experience matters but leave the airing of dirty laundry out of public forums and if I do the same I encourage anyone to call me out on it.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >because it implies that if one of us dies, the key worry of the management is who left who knows how to deploy the foo-banana service. That will exactly be the key worry of the management. We've had team members lost like that - and that was the worry. They'll still feel sorry, say their condolensces, and might even go to the funeral, but in the end, the work continues - almost immediately.

cryptonector 2y ago

"Key person risk" captures all the possibilities.

arendtio 2y ago

> But personally, if I win the lottery, I’m still doing a handover. I wonder why we talk about such rare events. People get sick, and burnout is very common, too. Some people look for a new job, and when they find it, they call in sick just to not have to handle all the stress of their old job. There are plenty of more likely examples of not having a handover.

crabmusket 2y ago

"Taken by the Rapture"?

DanHulton 2y ago

"Doing a handover" won't save a lot of companies. There's no level of "handover" that will save some of the shops I've been in, that just 100% rely on one team member to handle _everything._ Even if they took a _month_ to try to pass along along their accumulated knowledge, there's ingrained engineering practices and processes that all boil down to "Go ask Chris." Honestly, I'd say that if you're able to do a handover in two weeks, and that covers everything it needs to cover? Well, then probably the handover isn't _actually_ necessary, and anything you cover in those two weeks could probably be figured out by a reasonably competent teammate. Knowledge is rarely the issue, being a person-shaped load-bearing component for your team _is._ (But also, good on you for taking a bit of time to make sure your old co-workers aren't left in the lurch. It probably also gives a bit of time to consider what you _really_ want to do with the winnings, so as not to blow it all in the first year like a lot of lottery winners do.)

chipdart 2y ago
> "Doing a handover" won't save a lot of companies. There's no level of "handover" that will save some of the shops I've been in, that just 100% rely on one team member to handle _everything._ Even if they took a _month_ to try to pass along along their accumulated knowledge, there's ingrained engineering practices and processes that all boil down to "Go ask Chris." That might very well be true, but to a manager having a handover means the problem of loss of institutional knowledge is solved, and any subsequent problem due to lack of context or loss of institutional knowledge is avoidable and caused by poor handovers.

coldtea 2y ago

>But personally, if I win the lottery, I’m still doing a handover. How much time are you devoting to it? Enough for the project to ship, which could take months or a year, or merely enough to hastily give some other devs a breakdown of the thing, and "so long suckers" / hope for the best? And, while you might (still do a handover), would others?

ijidak 2y ago

- Kidnapped to paradise - Abducted by beautiful aliens

RadiozRadioz 2y ago

I don't like "win the lottery" because it implies that the sole reason for the person staying is money; it devalues their loyalty to the team. Everyone's working for money in reality of course, but to me it doesn't feel team-spirited to call it out.

euroderf 2y ago

Good documentation will commit as much as possible to paper: to turn the implicit into the explicit. But then ya gotta keep it up to date.