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I'm fascinated about starliner strictly from a project management perspective. This is such a comprehensive failure from top to bottom between the delays, test

I'm fascinated about starliner strictly from a project management perspective. This is such a comprehensive failure from top to bottom between the delays, test failures, and hand waved requirements yet there still seems to be a contingent of boosters from both leadership and the customer. Usually I'm the guy who gets called in to rescue a spiraling project and if I was in aerospace, I dont even know where I would begin here....

jiggawatts 2y ago
You see, there is this barrel, and it is full of pork. You work for a guy who wants that pork. He says: Go pick up some of the pork, cut a chunk off for yourself, and bring the rest to me. You do that every day. You both have a nice steady supply of pork. Some other person, who isn't you, and isn't your boss, or your boss's boss would like it if the barrel got into space. It doesn't, but that's okay because they have no power over you or your boss. Not to mention that both you and your boss both have some pork, so you're both happy whether or not the barrel goes into space. There is no problem here to solve. That's why you can't solve the problem. There isn't one. Everyone directly involved is very happy. You can't "fix" happy people.
- 14u2c 2y ago
  Except that this was a fixed price contract. If they don't get it right the pork train does come to an end.
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    There will always be more fixed price contracts in the future. Every time the barrel emptied in the past, a new barrel full to the brim with pork was delivered.
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      That bsd analysis. There isnt a magical contract fairy that creates infinite contracts for every company. Yes there are more fixed price contracts, but if you fuck up like Starliner you are less likely to get another one. And even if you could get it. Boeing peadership has clearly stated they are basically not really interested in that anymore. The have lost billions on fixed price contracts in space and military. Boeing has not been able to get much new from NASA. Their moon lander was basically embaracing. They are in the nee private station buissness much. One SLS gets finally mercy killed they will not be a prime contractor anymore.
      - jiggawatts 2y ago
        > magical contract fairy I've never heard anyone call the federal government that.
      - yencabulator 2y ago
        In a pre-SpaceX world, there pretty much was no one else they could lose the next contract to. I think a lot of Boeing still lives in a world where they have a good reputation to milk.
    - Tuna-Fish 2y ago
      This would make sense if the money was paid upfront. It wasn't. As of right now, Boeing is massively in the hole on the project. The only way they get paid if they successfully complete the development program and then fly the 6 operational flights.
  - burnished 2y ago
    That doesn't seem to actually be the case?
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      It is the case. Boeing is losing billions.
Analemma_ 2y ago
Boeing is too-big-to-fail in both civilian air travel and military procurement. They know they don’t have to give a shit, because the Federal government will always give them a slap on the wrist and another chance. They’ve literally forgotten how to compete deliver a working product on schedule, because for generations nobody has required them to do so.
- spacecadet 2y ago
  It would be nice if the government did what they did with GM... Hostile take over, clean house, restart and eventually release. Maybe people have a negative impression of the GM take over, but it was the best option and "worked".

jiggawatts 2y ago

You see, there is this barrel, and it is full of pork. You work for a guy who wants that pork. He says: Go pick up some of the pork, cut a chunk off for yourself, and bring the rest to me. You do that every day. You both have a nice steady supply of pork. Some other person, who isn't you, and isn't your boss, or your boss's boss would like it if the barrel got into space. It doesn't, but that's okay because they have no power over you or your boss. Not to mention that both you and your boss both have some pork, so you're both happy whether or not the barrel goes into space. There is no problem here to solve. That's why you can't solve the problem. There isn't one. Everyone directly involved is very happy. You can't "fix" happy people.

14u2c 2y ago
Except that this was a fixed price contract. If they don't get it right the pork train does come to an end.
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  There will always be more fixed price contracts in the future. Every time the barrel emptied in the past, a new barrel full to the brim with pork was delivered.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    That bsd analysis. There isnt a magical contract fairy that creates infinite contracts for every company. Yes there are more fixed price contracts, but if you fuck up like Starliner you are less likely to get another one. And even if you could get it. Boeing peadership has clearly stated they are basically not really interested in that anymore. The have lost billions on fixed price contracts in space and military. Boeing has not been able to get much new from NASA. Their moon lander was basically embaracing. They are in the nee private station buissness much. One SLS gets finally mercy killed they will not be a prime contractor anymore.
    - jiggawatts 2y ago
      > magical contract fairy I've never heard anyone call the federal government that.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      In a pre-SpaceX world, there pretty much was no one else they could lose the next contract to. I think a lot of Boeing still lives in a world where they have a good reputation to milk.
  - Tuna-Fish 2y ago
    This would make sense if the money was paid upfront. It wasn't. As of right now, Boeing is massively in the hole on the project. The only way they get paid if they successfully complete the development program and then fly the 6 operational flights.
- burnished 2y ago
  That doesn't seem to actually be the case?
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    It is the case. Boeing is losing billions.

Analemma_ 2y ago

Boeing is too-big-to-fail in both civilian air travel and military procurement. They know they don’t have to give a shit, because the Federal government will always give them a slap on the wrist and another chance. They’ve literally forgotten how to compete deliver a working product on schedule, because for generations nobody has required them to do so.

spacecadet 2y ago
It would be nice if the government did what they did with GM... Hostile take over, clean house, restart and eventually release. Maybe people have a negative impression of the GM take over, but it was the best option and "worked".