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macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips
- whatever1 2y agoAnd ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization
- albertopv 2y agoAnd never will (probably), Apple has been clear for years about market segmentation.
- _nalply 2y agoIt's about control. If they would allow virtualization then some people would use that to run software Apple can't control, especially not monetize.
- pjmlp 2y agoIt is no different than Windows Home, Professional, Workstation, Enterprise, Nano, Server,....
- soulofmischief 2y agoWell, Windows is also user-hostile and engages in control tactics.
- sgjohnson 2y agoWindows Server is actually quite tightly controlled licensing wise. Any client user/device using any service on the server requires a client access licence (CAL).
- cyberax 2y agoNo, it is VERY different from Windows Home/Pro. Windows doesn't bar you from running custom code. Windows Home does not ship Hyper-V, but it allows you to run your own hypervisors just fine.
- derefr 2y agoIt's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation. In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. The way to "add" those components to iPadOS is different, but the effect would still be the same: having a computer that works like it has the better edition installed, without paying for the better edition.
- cyberax 2y ago> It's not about running arbitrary code But it is. Microsoft just doesn't want home users to run Hyper-V, without paying for a (slightly) more expensive Windows Pro license. Home users still can download free VirtualBox or whatever other solution they care to use. They can also upgrade to a Pro license in-place, by paying $100. This is all perfectly normal. iPadOS is completely different. Apple does not _allow_ users to run any non-trivial system-level code. If Apple doesn't want you to access virtualization on iPad, you're out of luck. There are no easy workarounds.
- derefr 2y agoNo, I mean, "not allowing you to run arbitrary code" is just a side-effect, not the design choice. The design choice is market segmentation. In the Windows case, they can enforce your inability to install/enable Hyper-V on Windows Home through simple measures like protecting system files from modification. But in the iPadOS case, the only way to really prevent you from running a macOS VM, is by preventing you from running any VM. Due to the Turing-completeness of virtual machines, there's really no lesser measure they can take. You literally cannot create a piece of software that can run arbitrary VMs except for if the VM is semantically macOS. Whatever signal you would look for to blacklist macOS, an adversarial VM creator can mask by modifying the installation. (At an equilibrium point of such a game, the "adversarially-created macOS VM" would end up looking more like a Hackintosh rootfs than like a Mac rootfs — but it'd still look and feel and work like macOS, and that's all users would care about.)
- hmottestad 2y agoMight be better to compare it to the Xbox or PlayStation.
- swarnie 2y agoShouldn't people be able to run whatever software they like on a device they've purchased? Anything less isn't full ownership.
- denkmoon 2y agoThey can purchase something that allows that.
- walterbell 2y agoAt this point, only the EU can save the iPad from being eWaste World Champion. Mandate support for alternate OSes, like Asahi Linux on Macbook, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Security-Crash-Course https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur... > ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization iPadOS 17 on M4 has a "Secure Exclave" OS, https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013 https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013
- pjmlp 2y agoHere, https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface Vote with your wallet, if enough people do that, maybe Apple will notice. Now if you already validated what they are selling is enough to keep the masses happy, then it is as it is.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- walterbell 2y agoWaiting patiently for the first Nuvia/Oryon/SDXE tablet or 2-in-1, with detachable non-bluetooth keyboard The Snapdragon Elite devices launched so far have been laptops.
- sneak 2y agoThe number of people who are willing and able to “vote with their wallet” for alternative OSes on iPad is insufficient for results. The vast, vast majority of iPad users want iPadOS and nothing else. Hope is not a strategy.
- pjmlp 2y agoYet another proof that those that want something else, should sponsor someone else for their efforts. Not give money to Apple, and then complain.
- justinclift 2y agoIt'd be super useful if Asahi Linux worked on iPads. :)
- nailer 2y agoAnyone have a practical case for this? Not complaining just wondering.
- tonymet 2y agoInception
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jborean93 2y agoNested virtualization would be needed if you want to test out a Windows VM with the various Hyper-V integrations like WSL2, credential guard, etc.
- nailer 2y agoOh, that’s an excellent point. Things like WSL2 are very seamless so I don’t normally think of them as being virtualisation even though they obviously are. I might even use this myself as I need to document software development tools for Windows users.
- gilgoomesh 2y agoRunning an older version of macOS, which supports older versions of Xcode and then using that to run older iOS simulators.
- ajmurmann 2y agoCould I run an older version of macOS that still ran 32bit apps?
- jamesy0ung 2y agomacOS Mojave is the last version to support 32-bit applications. It only runs on x86_64, so you'd be emulating it, not virtualising.
- walterbell 2y agoAsahi Linux supports nested virtualization on Apple Silicon M2, where the feature is present in the chip, but not exposed by macOS.
- MaxikCZ 2y agoI was shopping for a phone some time ago. iP14 Pro had always-on display while non-Pro version didnt. Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled. Next year iP15, both non-Pro and Pro have Oled, but again only Pro has always-on display. Honestly that is the reason I am still on my Note9, and looking for another Android. I understand what product segmentation is, and probably I am minority, but damn, it feels like subscription-based heated seats.
- planb 2y agoThis is not software segmentation though. The Pro's OLED display is really a different hardware component that supports varible refresh rates down to 1Hz ("Pro Motion")
- ffsm8 2y agoI think if that was the real reason, then the feature would be available but default to off on the non-pro version
- philistine 2y agoThat is absolutely not how Apple operates, especially on the iPhone. The
- ffsm8 2y agoUh, yes it's not. Wasn't that the point? Apple loves to use such artificial segmentation to upsell their products
- fastball 2y ago
- vbezhenar 2y agoStill no USB Passthrough it seems. It's a pity.
- saagarjha 2y agoThat's up to the virtualization solution you're using.
- vbezhenar 2y agoThe link is specifically about Virtualization.Framework.
- littlecranky67 2y agoThat is something that Parallels traditionally had for x86, isn't it also the case for Parallels with Windows on ARM?
- JayDustheadz 2y agoI'm not a super-advanced user, so could somebody please let me know if this will allow running Windows on an ARM based Macs? Or perhaps running a VM with macOS Big Sur on macOS 15 ( I'm looking to install a specific version of an app via App Store - a version that is limited to macOS Big Sur )? Thanks in advance!
- wobfan 2y agoYou can already run Windows on Macs, just look at UTM or Parallels. You can also already run Big Sur on macOS 14. Edit: Should've added that you can only run Windows ARM. Emulating x86 on ARM (= running "normal" Windows on macOS M-processors) may be possible (I'm not sure), but practically not usable as it will be painfully slow. That will probably not change in the near future. However Windows ARM contains a Rosetta-like x86 emulation layer so with some luck you won't even notice that you're running Windows ARM and not "normal" Windows.
- nottorp 2y ago> Emulating x86 on ARM (= running "normal" Windows on macOS M-processors) may be possible (I'm not sure), but practically not usable as it will be painfully slow. I tried the UTM qemu based solution for x86 windows. It's there and it ... starts. But yes, it's way way too slow for daily use. If you just have an occasional task like document conversion once in a while, i guess you could.
- JayDustheadz 2y agoThat's the issue - you can not run Big Sur on macOS 14 on an ARM Mac - from what I know, this is only possible on an Intel machine. Perhaps also on the very first M1 Macs, though I'm not sure about that one. Or am I wrong?
- taran_narat 2y agoI’m even less, what’s nested virtualisation?
- Datagenerator 2y ago
- dehrmann 2y agoServers aren't really Apple's thing, so it hasn't been much of an issue, but isn't this something Intel CPUs have supported for almost two decades?
- thesquib 2y agoCame here to say the same thing