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This is only anecdotal but I had heard about the benefits of fasting for brain performance, so I once tried fasting during a chess tournament. I fasted during

This is only anecdotal but I had heard about the benefits of fasting for brain performance, so I once tried fasting during a chess tournament. I fasted during the first six days of the tournament. My results were disappointing so I gave up and broke the fast on the seventh day.

ralfd 2y ago
And did you play better? Fasting is different than ketonic diet though. With fasting you also lose constantly salts/minerals/vitamins. Especially salt deficit will make on tired.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  What do you think about drinking water with electrolytes or those electrolyte “salt”rich tablets that have magnesium, sodium, calcium, etc? (While fasting of course)
  - Rury 2y ago
    It's important while fasting. Your body needs electrolytes or you will have all sorts of health issues. Potassium is the most important one, followed by sodium. Every cell in your body has a sodium/potassium pump, which works to keep potassium inside your cells and sodium outside (creating a battery essentially). About 30% of all energy in your body is used just to maintain this pump. Anyhow, potassium is the big one... many people don't get enough from their diet even while not fasting. And unfortunately supplements give very minuscule amounts of potassium (<=2% of RDI), supposedly because rapid absorption of large amounts of it can cause heart arrhythmias/attacks.
Topfi 2y ago
Did you do a full "water fast" during those six days or an intermittent approach and did you supplement electrolytes or take any other supplements? Genuinely interested, hope this doesn't read as the often common "you should have done this" reaction I commonly see when discussing certain diets or fasting.
Aurornis 2y ago
If you’ve been regularly eating meals multiple times per day, it will take your body much longer to start functioning well during a fast. That said, I think the mental performance benefits of fasting have been excessively hyped. I wouldn’t expect a chess player who has been fasting for multiple days to have better mental clarity. The body goes into energy preservation mode when food becomes scarce for days. That includes reduced energy expenditure for the brain.
- Attummm 2y ago
  Contrary to popular belief, fasting actually increases metabolism. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36674-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36674-9
  - layla5alive 2y ago
    Temporarily, and then it is dramatically reduced. Jesus people, please stop with the unequivocal statements about equivocal/nuanced/complex things.
    - Attummm 2y ago
      Did you read the study? The study is about prolonged fasting, up to 58 hours. They observed that metabolism Increased during fasting. > During human fasting, metabolic markers, including butyrates, carnitines, and branched-chain amino acids, are upregulated for energy substitution through gluconeogenesis and use of stored lipids.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        You are misunderstanding what that means… it is an up regulation of catabolism- breaking down other molecules and tissues for survival during fasting. Overall metabolic rate is drastically reduced during prolonged fasting, which is good, it preserves nutrients for survival. 58 hours is not a long fast in terms of total adaptability to fasting- humans can fast much longer, sometimes for months, and the biggest down regulation of metabolism usually happens later than this.
halfcat 2y ago
I recall someone, maybe Tim Ferriss, saying it typically takes him 6-8 weeks before he can do an equivalent workout on keto, and for high level endurance athletes much longer, like 12-18 months of adaptation before they start seeing clear benefits over their previous non-keto baseline. So there’s an adaptation period, which is why it’s hard to do studies on this, because people starting keto cold turkey is likely to result in worse performance, mentally and physically, in the short term.
- iamacyborg 2y ago
  High level endurance athletes are unlikely to be going full keto given the need for intra-race nutrition.
Attummm 2y ago
The reason why that happened is quite simple. You are currently accustomed to being in a fed state, and it will take a while to adapt to a fasted state. Additionally, during the initial period, you may experience issues such as sugar withdrawal, which can lower your performance. Your body’s cells will need to switch from predominantly using glucose to using ketones and fatty acids. This process can take weeks to months. The body is able to use both glucose and ketones; this is called being metabolically flexible. This flexibility can be achieved through intermittent fasting. So give it time.
stephc_int13 2y ago
I fast once or a twice a year for 3-6 days, and I practice "one meal a day" most of the year. My first fast was difficult, I did not supplement with electrolytes, slept too much and basically spent the duration watching series and feeling awful. It is much better to go outside, work and try to follow your regular habits. Electrolytes supplements are a must, and also some paracetamol during the first few days to reduce the inconvenience of your brain switching from glucose to ketones. Fasting is easier the more you do it, partly because of calibrated expectations and less fear but I also think that the body simply adapts. The only difficult day is the first one, for me. The mental clarity thing is not a boost, you won't gain IQ points or intellectual stamina, more like slightly enhanced mood and more stable/regulated mental performance.
- drivebyhooting 2y ago
  Paracetamol is an anticholinergic isn’t it? It’s bad for your brain and its usage is associated with dementia.
  - toxik 2y ago
    Are you really suggesting paracetamol causes dementia?
  - jodleif 2y ago
    Citation needed
    - bobmcnamara 2y ago
      "Regular use of paracetamol, but not ibuprofen, was associated with a significantly higher risk of new-onset dementia in the old population, regardless of genetic risks of dementia." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37633120/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37633120/
      - stephc_int13 2y ago
        Paracetamol is the default painkiller for most people, I would suspect that regular use means some kind of inflammation. I would not find surprising that chronic headache could be correlated with risk of dementia.
fbdab103 2y ago
Supposedly chess layers burn excessive calories playing. From one popular culture article[0] ...The six-game championship in 2004 left Rustam Kasimdzhanov 17 pounds lighter. And in 2018, one company tracking the heart rate of grandmaster Mikhail Antipov concluded that he had burned 560 calories in just two hours. Sitting still. Playing chess. (An average-sized person would need two hours on a treadmill to break 500.) Last week, ESPN looked more closely into the toll the stationary sport takes on the body. ESPN spoke with Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford University researcher who studies primates. Sapolsky explained that some chess players respond to the game like any elite athlete, burning upwards of 6,000 calories a day during tournaments, due to tripled breathing rates, elevated blood pressure, and muscle contractions. That means during tournaments they can lose two pounds each day. I have done several fasts, and I am quite dubious of the supposed mental improvements. My brain has spent 99%+ of its existence no more than 12 hours away from a steady supply of glucose. I personally feel physically and mentally sluggish. While probably erring much on the side of caution, I avoid driving during a 5+ day fast because I feel my reaction speed is diminished. Furthermore, the brain is the single most energetically expensive organ in the body. If there were a shortcut metabolic pathway, it seems like it would have been exploited long ago. [0] https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a29144951/chess-players-calorie-burn/ https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a29144951/chess-players-c...
- samatman 2y ago
  Ketosis isn't a shortcut, it's a critical part of the human organism. The brain has to run on something, and we store very little glycogen. It wasn't uncommon in the ancestral environment for food to be entirely unavailable, or for the only calories to be in the form of meat, which itself has little glycogen. So there's a secondary pathway to account for those conditions. A hand-waving argument could be made that in circumstances where there are no calories, it is the most important time for the brain to function well. Glucose is the cheapest, metabolically, that doesn't automatically mean that it's the best. The reaction someone has to a fast, or to a diet which induces ketosis, is fairly personal. I don't think there are broad sweeping conclusions we can draw here. My n=1 is that after two days of a fast, I feel pretty sharp. Electrolytes are indeed essential to this; in this context salt is far and away the most important, for whatever reason. I would expect the YMMV factor to dominate though.
srik 2y ago
Did you take your electrolytes? If you don’t supplement on Magnesium/Potassium/Sodium you’ll have to deal with severely unpleasant effects on any water fast that spans beyond 2-3 days.
- grondilu 2y ago
  No, I didn't take any electrolyte, as it seems artificial to me.
  - srik 2y ago
    Huge mistake. Water fasting is a breeze when done correctly and dangerous when not. The biggest risks are not supplementing the fundamental electrolytes because your body runs out of them in about 2-3 days and the second is not taking precautions to prevent refeeding syndrome. If you’d like to attempt another 3+ day fasting please read up on the fundamentals this time to ensure a pleasant experience. I love my headspace during an extended fasting, nothing quite like it. Two good sources to read up on this is the r/fasting subreddit’s wiki, (note the electrolyte and refeeding syndrome sections) and if you’d like something with more depth any/all of Dr. Jason Fung’s fasting books. https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell
    - bzmrgonz 2y ago
      I beg to differ sir.. (full disclosure.. I am no doctor, nor expert in the subject, I've just read a lot of material, and I have survived 8 years of water fasting sans electrolytes) I've been water fasting for 7 days every 3 months for the past 8 years. For maximum health benefit, it is my humble OPINIOIN that we should not consume electrolytes, not until the 10th day of water fasting that is. When I waterfast, I want my entire GI-track to be on vacation (park everything). Furthermore, I don't want my biological cells being "distracted" by any substance in the blood stream. I want them consuming fat(no conversion energy) and doing severe spring cleaning. I want tissue repair in the entire GI-track, I want tissue repair in the liver, kidneys, heart... everywhere. I want damaged white blood cells to be flushed out (due to calorie restriction)<to be replaced with new cells once I start eating> renewed, I want I want senescent cells<zombie cells) to be flushed out. I strongly believe that introducing salts into the body will prevent optimal health benefits otherwise achieved. I would however, consider the introduction of a substance to break-down plaque in the veins while I fast, something that would break down fibrin, which is the glue holding plaque together, but I have not found a good natural fibrin-disolving substance.
coldtea 2y ago
I don't think it works that way. Probably should have eased in for months, doing fasting a day or couple of days per week, before tackling a 7 day fast head on, and at a demanding situation nonetheless!

ralfd 2y ago

And did you play better? Fasting is different than ketonic diet though. With fasting you also lose constantly salts/minerals/vitamins. Especially salt deficit will make on tired.

EasyMark 2y ago
What do you think about drinking water with electrolytes or those electrolyte “salt”rich tablets that have magnesium, sodium, calcium, etc? (While fasting of course)
- Rury 2y ago
  It's important while fasting. Your body needs electrolytes or you will have all sorts of health issues. Potassium is the most important one, followed by sodium. Every cell in your body has a sodium/potassium pump, which works to keep potassium inside your cells and sodium outside (creating a battery essentially). About 30% of all energy in your body is used just to maintain this pump. Anyhow, potassium is the big one... many people don't get enough from their diet even while not fasting. And unfortunately supplements give very minuscule amounts of potassium (<=2% of RDI), supposedly because rapid absorption of large amounts of it can cause heart arrhythmias/attacks.

Topfi 2y ago

Did you do a full "water fast" during those six days or an intermittent approach and did you supplement electrolytes or take any other supplements? Genuinely interested, hope this doesn't read as the often common "you should have done this" reaction I commonly see when discussing certain diets or fasting.

Aurornis 2y ago

If you’ve been regularly eating meals multiple times per day, it will take your body much longer to start functioning well during a fast. That said, I think the mental performance benefits of fasting have been excessively hyped. I wouldn’t expect a chess player who has been fasting for multiple days to have better mental clarity. The body goes into energy preservation mode when food becomes scarce for days. That includes reduced energy expenditure for the brain.

Attummm 2y ago
Contrary to popular belief, fasting actually increases metabolism. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36674-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36674-9
- layla5alive 2y ago
  Temporarily, and then it is dramatically reduced. Jesus people, please stop with the unequivocal statements about equivocal/nuanced/complex things.
  - Attummm 2y ago
    Did you read the study? The study is about prolonged fasting, up to 58 hours. They observed that metabolism Increased during fasting. > During human fasting, metabolic markers, including butyrates, carnitines, and branched-chain amino acids, are upregulated for energy substitution through gluconeogenesis and use of stored lipids.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      You are misunderstanding what that means… it is an up regulation of catabolism- breaking down other molecules and tissues for survival during fasting. Overall metabolic rate is drastically reduced during prolonged fasting, which is good, it preserves nutrients for survival. 58 hours is not a long fast in terms of total adaptability to fasting- humans can fast much longer, sometimes for months, and the biggest down regulation of metabolism usually happens later than this.

halfcat 2y ago

I recall someone, maybe Tim Ferriss, saying it typically takes him 6-8 weeks before he can do an equivalent workout on keto, and for high level endurance athletes much longer, like 12-18 months of adaptation before they start seeing clear benefits over their previous non-keto baseline. So there’s an adaptation period, which is why it’s hard to do studies on this, because people starting keto cold turkey is likely to result in worse performance, mentally and physically, in the short term.

iamacyborg 2y ago
High level endurance athletes are unlikely to be going full keto given the need for intra-race nutrition.

Attummm 2y ago

The reason why that happened is quite simple. You are currently accustomed to being in a fed state, and it will take a while to adapt to a fasted state. Additionally, during the initial period, you may experience issues such as sugar withdrawal, which can lower your performance. Your body’s cells will need to switch from predominantly using glucose to using ketones and fatty acids. This process can take weeks to months. The body is able to use both glucose and ketones; this is called being metabolically flexible. This flexibility can be achieved through intermittent fasting. So give it time.

stephc_int13 2y ago

I fast once or a twice a year for 3-6 days, and I practice "one meal a day" most of the year. My first fast was difficult, I did not supplement with electrolytes, slept too much and basically spent the duration watching series and feeling awful. It is much better to go outside, work and try to follow your regular habits. Electrolytes supplements are a must, and also some paracetamol during the first few days to reduce the inconvenience of your brain switching from glucose to ketones. Fasting is easier the more you do it, partly because of calibrated expectations and less fear but I also think that the body simply adapts. The only difficult day is the first one, for me. The mental clarity thing is not a boost, you won't gain IQ points or intellectual stamina, more like slightly enhanced mood and more stable/regulated mental performance.

drivebyhooting 2y ago
Paracetamol is an anticholinergic isn’t it? It’s bad for your brain and its usage is associated with dementia.
- toxik 2y ago
  Are you really suggesting paracetamol causes dementia?
- jodleif 2y ago
  Citation needed
  - bobmcnamara 2y ago
    "Regular use of paracetamol, but not ibuprofen, was associated with a significantly higher risk of new-onset dementia in the old population, regardless of genetic risks of dementia." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37633120/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37633120/
    - stephc_int13 2y ago
      Paracetamol is the default painkiller for most people, I would suspect that regular use means some kind of inflammation. I would not find surprising that chronic headache could be correlated with risk of dementia.

fbdab103 2y ago

Supposedly chess layers burn excessive calories playing. From one popular culture article[0] ...The six-game championship in 2004 left Rustam Kasimdzhanov 17 pounds lighter. And in 2018, one company tracking the heart rate of grandmaster Mikhail Antipov concluded that he had burned 560 calories in just two hours. Sitting still. Playing chess. (An average-sized person would need two hours on a treadmill to break 500.) Last week, ESPN looked more closely into the toll the stationary sport takes on the body. ESPN spoke with Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford University researcher who studies primates. Sapolsky explained that some chess players respond to the game like any elite athlete, burning upwards of 6,000 calories a day during tournaments, due to tripled breathing rates, elevated blood pressure, and muscle contractions. That means during tournaments they can lose two pounds each day. I have done several fasts, and I am quite dubious of the supposed mental improvements. My brain has spent 99%+ of its existence no more than 12 hours away from a steady supply of glucose. I personally feel physically and mentally sluggish. While probably erring much on the side of caution, I avoid driving during a 5+ day fast because I feel my reaction speed is diminished. Furthermore, the brain is the single most energetically expensive organ in the body. If there were a shortcut metabolic pathway, it seems like it would have been exploited long ago. [0] https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a29144951/chess-players-calorie-burn/ https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a29144951/chess-players-c...

samatman 2y ago
Ketosis isn't a shortcut, it's a critical part of the human organism. The brain has to run on something, and we store very little glycogen. It wasn't uncommon in the ancestral environment for food to be entirely unavailable, or for the only calories to be in the form of meat, which itself has little glycogen. So there's a secondary pathway to account for those conditions. A hand-waving argument could be made that in circumstances where there are no calories, it is the most important time for the brain to function well. Glucose is the cheapest, metabolically, that doesn't automatically mean that it's the best. The reaction someone has to a fast, or to a diet which induces ketosis, is fairly personal. I don't think there are broad sweeping conclusions we can draw here. My n=1 is that after two days of a fast, I feel pretty sharp. Electrolytes are indeed essential to this; in this context salt is far and away the most important, for whatever reason. I would expect the YMMV factor to dominate though.

srik 2y ago

Did you take your electrolytes? If you don’t supplement on Magnesium/Potassium/Sodium you’ll have to deal with severely unpleasant effects on any water fast that spans beyond 2-3 days.

grondilu 2y ago
No, I didn't take any electrolyte, as it seems artificial to me.
- srik 2y ago
  Huge mistake. Water fasting is a breeze when done correctly and dangerous when not. The biggest risks are not supplementing the fundamental electrolytes because your body runs out of them in about 2-3 days and the second is not taking precautions to prevent refeeding syndrome. If you’d like to attempt another 3+ day fasting please read up on the fundamentals this time to ensure a pleasant experience. I love my headspace during an extended fasting, nothing quite like it. Two good sources to read up on this is the r/fasting subreddit’s wiki, (note the electrolyte and refeeding syndrome sections) and if you’d like something with more depth any/all of Dr. Jason Fung’s fasting books. https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell
  - bzmrgonz 2y ago
    I beg to differ sir.. (full disclosure.. I am no doctor, nor expert in the subject, I've just read a lot of material, and I have survived 8 years of water fasting sans electrolytes) I've been water fasting for 7 days every 3 months for the past 8 years. For maximum health benefit, it is my humble OPINIOIN that we should not consume electrolytes, not until the 10th day of water fasting that is. When I waterfast, I want my entire GI-track to be on vacation (park everything). Furthermore, I don't want my biological cells being "distracted" by any substance in the blood stream. I want them consuming fat(no conversion energy) and doing severe spring cleaning. I want tissue repair in the entire GI-track, I want tissue repair in the liver, kidneys, heart... everywhere. I want damaged white blood cells to be flushed out (due to calorie restriction)<to be replaced with new cells once I start eating> renewed, I want I want senescent cells<zombie cells) to be flushed out. I strongly believe that introducing salts into the body will prevent optimal health benefits otherwise achieved. I would however, consider the introduction of a substance to break-down plaque in the veins while I fast, something that would break down fibrin, which is the glue holding plaque together, but I have not found a good natural fibrin-disolving substance.

coldtea 2y ago

I don't think it works that way. Probably should have eased in for months, doing fasting a day or couple of days per week, before tackling a 7 day fast head on, and at a demanding situation nonetheless!