5 ms·

.NET for NES Game Console on 6502 Microprocessors

127 points by mtmk 2y ago

codespin 2y ago
I love seeing fun little projects like this
- nurettin 2y ago
  then you will love this https://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/1c23y53/youtuber_mattkc_backported_net_framework_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/1c23y53/youtuber_ma...
  - CodeCompost 2y ago
    Didn't see the video but doesn't that effectively mean that .NET was ported to DOS?
    - KETHERCORTEX 2y ago
      No. It relies on Windows 95 infrastructure. And it's not a modern .NET, but .NET Framework 2.0.
      - nurettin 2y ago
        It is still maintained. You can use .net 2.0 on the latest visual studio if you choose to.
    - nurettin 2y ago
      .net 2.0 and later are highly dependent on windows and winapi. Parts of .net core might stand a better chance at being ported to DOS.
      - LeFantome 2y ago
        .NET 2.0 was fully implemented as Open Source by the Mono Project. The most recent version includes quite a bit of Microsoft code and offers .NET 1.0 through 4.x
le-mark 2y ago
No runtime No BCL No objects or GC No debugger Strings are ASCII I did not see the readme mention anything about bool/byte/char/short/int/long sizes or signed and unsigned. It can be quite a surprise to find yourself with 8 bit long longs! As some found with sdcc for gameboy.
- noobermin 2y ago
  The NES has 2K ram, where you can get carts with mappers that allow you to use prg as ram as well though, this is still limited. Also, the "stack" as it exists must fit on a page (256 bytes). Putting a runtime or sorts onto an NES itself is a big feat given this and requires a lot of manual twiddling.
  - bagful 2y ago
    The hardware stack pointer is restricted to indexing within [$0100, $01ff] but, lacking a stack-pointer-relative addressing mode, it is more preferable to realize a parameter stack using a zero-page pointer indexed with the (zp),Y addressing mode, as cc65 does.
userbinator 2y ago
This looks very much like "Hello World" in C, taking advantage of the latest C# features in 2023. If you admit that it looks like C(99), what's "C#" about it then? This can probably be done with just about every C-syntax-derived language, which is why I think the title is a bit clickbaity; I was expecting some sort of highly-stripped-down CLR.
- whaleofatw2022 2y ago
  When I saw it only seems to support a 'main' I got disappointed. If it could even get to 'method calls with ref structs' you would start getting into where I'd want to YOLO with it, maybe even use Nesticle to test for the irony.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  The same way C23 on NES, isn't C proper, rather the macro assembler K&R C used to be.
  - DeathArrow 2y ago
    So K&R C wasn't proper C?
    - shzhdbi09gv8ioi 2y ago
      It predates the first standardized C versions: * ANSI C by 11 years (C89) * ISO C by 12 years (C90) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#K&R_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#K&R_C
      - ngcc_hk 2y ago
        So strange. Someone invented a computer language called C and is not proper C until it is stabdardised by a committee. I would say the original C is proper C. Got a whole operating system to run with it. Organisation is nothing if we do not accept individual’s role.
noobermin 2y ago
Saw this make the runs on twitter a few weeks ago and was confused, I had assumed they had ported a limited run time by making a custom cart with a large prg rom, which seems like an amazing feat actually...whereas this is a 6502 compiler essentially with some limited functionality. No shade btw, just seeing the title made me perhaps expect quite the effort while this is still a fun project of sorts.
richardfey 2y ago
I'd love something like this for the SNES
ladyanita22 2y ago
There's also this https://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2021-09-18-rust_on_the_mos_6502__beyond_fibonacci/ https://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2021-09-18-rust_on_the_mos_6502__... for rust on the 6502. I wonder how's the performance vs. C (for both, C# and Rust). Edit: It's my understanding that the 6502 is extremely stack-limited, so a well-versed assembler would use the stack very little and allocate mostly on the heap. In C, you can replicate this with global variables, and I believe (and I would be very happy if someone related to the 6502 rust port could chime in here) on Rust you can do the same with `static mut` on Rust 2021 and `Unsafecell` on Rust 2024.
DeathArrow 2y ago
>For lack of a better word, .NES is a "transpiler" that takes MSIL and transforms it directly into a working 6502 microprocessor binary that can run in your favorite NES emulator. >Building a project should produce a *.nes binary, that is byte-for-byte identical to a program written in C. What about memory management? Is the garbage collector included in the generated code? If not, any idea on how memory management is done?
- besnn00 2y ago
  No objects and GC so far. I guess local variables are stored on the stack and for everything on the heap (globals, strings) the transpiler maps MSIL loads and stores to 6502 loads and stores.
DeathArrow 2y ago
How hard would be to add a 6502 backend to the C# AOT compiler?

127 points by mtmk 2y ago

codespin 2y ago

I love seeing fun little projects like this

nurettin 2y ago
then you will love this https://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/1c23y53/youtuber_mattkc_backported_net_framework_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/1c23y53/youtuber_ma...
- CodeCompost 2y ago
  Didn't see the video but doesn't that effectively mean that .NET was ported to DOS?
  - KETHERCORTEX 2y ago
    No. It relies on Windows 95 infrastructure. And it's not a modern .NET, but .NET Framework 2.0.
    - nurettin 2y ago
      It is still maintained. You can use .net 2.0 on the latest visual studio if you choose to.
  - nurettin 2y ago
    .net 2.0 and later are highly dependent on windows and winapi. Parts of .net core might stand a better chance at being ported to DOS.
    - LeFantome 2y ago
      .NET 2.0 was fully implemented as Open Source by the Mono Project. The most recent version includes quite a bit of Microsoft code and offers .NET 1.0 through 4.x

le-mark 2y ago

No runtime No BCL No objects or GC No debugger Strings are ASCII I did not see the readme mention anything about bool/byte/char/short/int/long sizes or signed and unsigned. It can be quite a surprise to find yourself with 8 bit long longs! As some found with sdcc for gameboy.

noobermin 2y ago
The NES has 2K ram, where you can get carts with mappers that allow you to use prg as ram as well though, this is still limited. Also, the "stack" as it exists must fit on a page (256 bytes). Putting a runtime or sorts onto an NES itself is a big feat given this and requires a lot of manual twiddling.
- bagful 2y ago
  The hardware stack pointer is restricted to indexing within [$0100, $01ff] but, lacking a stack-pointer-relative addressing mode, it is more preferable to realize a parameter stack using a zero-page pointer indexed with the (zp),Y addressing mode, as cc65 does.

userbinator 2y ago

This looks very much like "Hello World" in C, taking advantage of the latest C# features in 2023. If you admit that it looks like C(99), what's "C#" about it then? This can probably be done with just about every C-syntax-derived language, which is why I think the title is a bit clickbaity; I was expecting some sort of highly-stripped-down CLR.

whaleofatw2022 2y ago
When I saw it only seems to support a 'main' I got disappointed. If it could even get to 'method calls with ref structs' you would start getting into where I'd want to YOLO with it, maybe even use Nesticle to test for the irony.
pjmlp 2y ago
The same way C23 on NES, isn't C proper, rather the macro assembler K&R C used to be.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  So K&R C wasn't proper C?
  - shzhdbi09gv8ioi 2y ago
    It predates the first standardized C versions: * ANSI C by 11 years (C89) * ISO C by 12 years (C90) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#K&R_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#K&R_C
    - ngcc_hk 2y ago
      So strange. Someone invented a computer language called C and is not proper C until it is stabdardised by a committee. I would say the original C is proper C. Got a whole operating system to run with it. Organisation is nothing if we do not accept individual’s role.

noobermin 2y ago

Saw this make the runs on twitter a few weeks ago and was confused, I had assumed they had ported a limited run time by making a custom cart with a large prg rom, which seems like an amazing feat actually...whereas this is a 6502 compiler essentially with some limited functionality. No shade btw, just seeing the title made me perhaps expect quite the effort while this is still a fun project of sorts.

richardfey 2y ago

I'd love something like this for the SNES

ladyanita22 2y ago

There's also this https://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2021-09-18-rust_on_the_mos_6502__beyond_fibonacci/ https://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2021-09-18-rust_on_the_mos_6502__... for rust on the 6502. I wonder how's the performance vs. C (for both, C# and Rust). Edit: It's my understanding that the 6502 is extremely stack-limited, so a well-versed assembler would use the stack very little and allocate mostly on the heap. In C, you can replicate this with global variables, and I believe (and I would be very happy if someone related to the 6502 rust port could chime in here) on Rust you can do the same with `static mut` on Rust 2021 and `Unsafecell` on Rust 2024.

DeathArrow 2y ago

>For lack of a better word, .NES is a "transpiler" that takes MSIL and transforms it directly into a working 6502 microprocessor binary that can run in your favorite NES emulator. >Building a project should produce a *.nes binary, that is byte-for-byte identical to a program written in C. What about memory management? Is the garbage collector included in the generated code? If not, any idea on how memory management is done?

besnn00 2y ago
No objects and GC so far. I guess local variables are stored on the stack and for everything on the heap (globals, strings) the transpiler maps MSIL loads and stores to 6502 loads and stores.

DeathArrow 2y ago

How hard would be to add a 6502 backend to the C# AOT compiler?