5 ms·

This article is a platitude with no hard data. Climate impacts can be measured, so it’s suspicious to not include actual measurements when comparing X against Y

This article is a platitude with no hard data. Climate impacts can be measured, so it’s suspicious to not include actual measurements when comparing X against Y. Feel free to educate me in the comments, it’s more than this article did.

dragontamer 2y ago
ACEEE has a methodology where they assign a $$ value to different kinds of pollution (NOx, CO2, PM2.5, etc. etc.), and then estimate the lifetime of pollution for various cars. https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars EVs *do* have pollution associated with their creation. And its largely upon that battery pack. But with a small enough battery pack and clean enough chemistry, you'll see cars like the Nissan Leaf reach the top of these lists. But some battery packs, such as NCA-cells found in Tesla, get penalized. -------- ACEEE seems to have used an Argonne National Labs program to estimate the pollution of various raw materials. You can read about it here: https://greenercars.org/greenercars-ratings/how-we-determine-ratings/ https://greenercars.org/greenercars-ratings/how-we-determine... Everyone's methodology is different, which means everyone will reach different conclusions. We *SHOULD* figure out the lifetime pollution of various EVs, mostly because different EVs will be better (or worse) than others. Its not sufficient enough to just be an EV fanboy anymore, there's a huge difference from an EV Hummer (which has more lifetime pollutions than a typical car) and a Nissan Leaf. ------------ ACEEE shows that many Hybrids and PHEVs are competitive vs many EVs on a lifetime scale of pollution. Case in point: Toyota's Prius Prime is the greenest car according to ACEEE. The combination of very small battery pack (13kW-hr) and very efficient driving (130MPGe when in electric mode, 50+ MPG in gasoline mode) means very little emissions in practice. The bigger 70kW-hr battery packs emit more pollution upon creation and never catch up to the Prius or Prius Prime.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Many countries have committed to zero-carbon electricity by 2035. Any car you buy today will likely still be on the road then. The EV's emissions will have dropped to essentially 0 per mile whereas the Prius hybrid will still be at current levels.
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    A huge chunk of EV emissions is in the dirty and expensive mining/refining process of Li-ion. Lifetime emissions are the best way to measure the difference from an "upfront" emissions (like a Li-ion battery) vs an "over time" emissions (like a Hybrid engine).
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      No it's not. Manufacturing a battery creates 2-5 tons of CO2 emissions, which is about 1 year's worth of emissions from a gasoline car. And Lithium is a small fraction of those 5 tons from the battery.
      - dragontamer 2y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10683946/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10683946/ > The reported GHG emissions range from 39–196-kgCO2eq/kWh battery due to differences in many factors including battery specifications and technologies, geographical locations, and life cycle inventory data; and material, energy, and processes emission factors; making direct comparison of results very difficult Assuming a 80kW-hr battery pack, I'm seeing anywhere from 2.7-tons to 15-tons of CO2, which is a bit more variance than you initially pointed out. More specifically, we can breakdown per country and get better estimates. > Several of these studies focus on individual countries. For instance, Kim et al. (17) focused on South Korea and found an emission intensity of 141-kgCO2eq/kWh battery. Sun et al. studied China and reported an emission intensity of 124.5 kgCO2eq/kWh (20), while Dai et al. examined the United States and found an emission intensity of 72.9-kgCO2eq/kWh battery (6) Assuming 75 kg-CO2 / kWh for USA and 80kW-hr gives me ~6-tons of CO2 per battery pack assuming relatively clean US Production. Its approximately 20lbs of CO2 per gallon of gasoline. So 6-tons of CO2 is equivalent to 600 gallons of Gasoline, or ~24,000 miles in a typical Corolla Hybrid. A Prius Prime is around 70% electric and 30% gasoline at 50mpg. That makes the crossover point at nearly 100,000 miles for the Prius Prime. (30,000 Mi gasoline, 70,000 Mi electric), assuming the electricity used was zero greenhouse gasses (unlikely: most electricity these days are Natural Gas in the USA). Needless to say, the Hybrid equation is strong even in a hypothetical 100% green electric grid. Move to ~60% fossil fuel electric grid (like what we have right now in the USA) and the math goes screwy, but clearly in favor of ICE/Hybrid/PHEV. Change the math to South Korean's dirtier 141-kgCO2/kWh and we're looking at nearly 50,000 miles before the EV (on 100% green / zero-emissions) beats a Corolla Hybrid (40mpg), and nearly 200,000 miles before the EV beats a Prius Prime.
mint2 2y ago
The article provides citations to studies with hard data backing up the statements so I’m not sure what you’re looking for.

dragontamer 2y ago

ACEEE has a methodology where they assign a $$ value to different kinds of pollution (NOx, CO2, PM2.5, etc. etc.), and then estimate the lifetime of pollution for various cars. https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars EVs *do* have pollution associated with their creation. And its largely upon that battery pack. But with a small enough battery pack and clean enough chemistry, you'll see cars like the Nissan Leaf reach the top of these lists. But some battery packs, such as NCA-cells found in Tesla, get penalized. -------- ACEEE seems to have used an Argonne National Labs program to estimate the pollution of various raw materials. You can read about it here: https://greenercars.org/greenercars-ratings/how-we-determine-ratings/ https://greenercars.org/greenercars-ratings/how-we-determine... Everyone's methodology is different, which means everyone will reach different conclusions. We *SHOULD* figure out the lifetime pollution of various EVs, mostly because different EVs will be better (or worse) than others. Its not sufficient enough to just be an EV fanboy anymore, there's a huge difference from an EV Hummer (which has more lifetime pollutions than a typical car) and a Nissan Leaf. ------------ ACEEE shows that many Hybrids and PHEVs are competitive vs many EVs on a lifetime scale of pollution. Case in point: Toyota's Prius Prime is the greenest car according to ACEEE. The combination of very small battery pack (13kW-hr) and very efficient driving (130MPGe when in electric mode, 50+ MPG in gasoline mode) means very little emissions in practice. The bigger 70kW-hr battery packs emit more pollution upon creation and never catch up to the Prius or Prius Prime.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Many countries have committed to zero-carbon electricity by 2035. Any car you buy today will likely still be on the road then. The EV's emissions will have dropped to essentially 0 per mile whereas the Prius hybrid will still be at current levels.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  A huge chunk of EV emissions is in the dirty and expensive mining/refining process of Li-ion. Lifetime emissions are the best way to measure the difference from an "upfront" emissions (like a Li-ion battery) vs an "over time" emissions (like a Hybrid engine).
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    No it's not. Manufacturing a battery creates 2-5 tons of CO2 emissions, which is about 1 year's worth of emissions from a gasoline car. And Lithium is a small fraction of those 5 tons from the battery.
    - dragontamer 2y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10683946/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10683946/ > The reported GHG emissions range from 39–196-kgCO2eq/kWh battery due to differences in many factors including battery specifications and technologies, geographical locations, and life cycle inventory data; and material, energy, and processes emission factors; making direct comparison of results very difficult Assuming a 80kW-hr battery pack, I'm seeing anywhere from 2.7-tons to 15-tons of CO2, which is a bit more variance than you initially pointed out. More specifically, we can breakdown per country and get better estimates. > Several of these studies focus on individual countries. For instance, Kim et al. (17) focused on South Korea and found an emission intensity of 141-kgCO2eq/kWh battery. Sun et al. studied China and reported an emission intensity of 124.5 kgCO2eq/kWh (20), while Dai et al. examined the United States and found an emission intensity of 72.9-kgCO2eq/kWh battery (6) Assuming 75 kg-CO2 / kWh for USA and 80kW-hr gives me ~6-tons of CO2 per battery pack assuming relatively clean US Production. Its approximately 20lbs of CO2 per gallon of gasoline. So 6-tons of CO2 is equivalent to 600 gallons of Gasoline, or ~24,000 miles in a typical Corolla Hybrid. A Prius Prime is around 70% electric and 30% gasoline at 50mpg. That makes the crossover point at nearly 100,000 miles for the Prius Prime. (30,000 Mi gasoline, 70,000 Mi electric), assuming the electricity used was zero greenhouse gasses (unlikely: most electricity these days are Natural Gas in the USA). Needless to say, the Hybrid equation is strong even in a hypothetical 100% green electric grid. Move to ~60% fossil fuel electric grid (like what we have right now in the USA) and the math goes screwy, but clearly in favor of ICE/Hybrid/PHEV. Change the math to South Korean's dirtier 141-kgCO2/kWh and we're looking at nearly 50,000 miles before the EV (on 100% green / zero-emissions) beats a Corolla Hybrid (40mpg), and nearly 200,000 miles before the EV beats a Prius Prime.

mint2 2y ago

The article provides citations to studies with hard data backing up the statements so I’m not sure what you’re looking for.