12 ms·

The fact that TSMC publishes their own metrics and target goals for each node makes it straightforward to compare the transistor density, power efficiency, etc.

The fact that TSMC publishes their own metrics and target goals for each node makes it straightforward to compare the transistor density, power efficiency, etc. The most interesting aspect of the M4 is simply it's debuting on the iPad lineup, whereas historically it's always been on the iPhone (for A-series) and Macbook (for M-series). Makes sense given low expected yielded for the newest node for one of Apple's lower volume products. For the curious, the original TSMC N3 node had a lot of issues plus was very costly so makes sense to move away from it: https://www.semianalysis.com/p/tsmcs-3nm-conundrum-does-it-even https://www.semianalysis.com/p/tsmcs-3nm-conundrum-does-it-e...

spenczar5 2y ago
iPads are actually much higher volume than Macs. Apple sells about 2x to 3x as many tablets as laptops. Of course, phones dwarf both.
- andy_xor_andrew 2y ago
  The iPad Pros, though? I'm very curious how much iPad Pros sell. Out of all the products in Apple's lineup, the iPad Pro confuses me the most. You can tell what a PM inside Apple thinks the iPad Pro is for, based on the presentation: super powerful M4 chip! Use Final Cut Pro, or Garageband, or other desktop apps on the go! Etc etc. But in reality, who actually buys them, instead of an iPad Air? Maybe some people with too much money who want the latest gadgets? Ever since they debuted, the general consensus from tech reviewers on the iPad Pro has been "It's an amazing device, but no reason to buy it if you can buy a MacBook or an iPad Air" Apple really wants this "Pro" concept to exist for iPad Pro, like someone who uses it as their daily work surface. And maybe some people exist like that (artists? architects?) but most of the time when I see an iPad in a "pro" environment (like a pilot using it for nav, or a nurse using it for notes) they're using an old 2018 "regular" iPad.
  - transpute 2y ago
    iPadOS 16.3.1 can run virtual machines on M1/M2 silicon, https://old.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/18m0o1h/tutorial_tiny11arm64_vm_on_ipad_m1/?rdt=38058 https://old.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/18m0o1h/tutorial... Hypervisor support was removed from the iOS 16.4 kernel, hopefully it will return in iPadOS 18 for at least some approved devices. If not, Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support.
    - dmitrygr 2y ago
      > Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support. I have been seeking someone who’ll be willing to put money on such a claim. I’ll bet the other way. Perchance you’re the person I seek, if you truly believe this?
      - transpute 2y ago
        Which part - launch timing, multicore performance or mainline Linux support?
        dmitrygr 2y ago
        perf >= M3 while power consumption <= M3, while booted Linux and, say 50%: streaming a video on youtube.com over wifi at min brightness, 50% compiling some C project in a loop, minimum brightness from and to internal SSD. Compared to macOS on M3 doing the same
        transpute 2y ago
        its_a_trap.jpg :) At Qualcomm SoC launch, OSS Linux can't possibly compete with the deep pockets of optimized-shenanigan Windows "drivers" or vertically integrated macOS on Apple Silicon. But the incumbent landscape of Arm laptops for Linux is so desolate, that it can only be improved by the arrival of multiple Arm devices from Tier 1 PC OEMs based on a single SoC family, with skeletal support in mainline Linux. In time, as with Asahi reverse engineering of Apple firmware interfaces, we can have mainline Linux support and multiple Linux distros on enterprise Arm laptops. One risk for MS/Asus/HP/Dell/Lenovo devices based on Qualcomm Nuvia/Oryon/EliteX is that Qualcomm + Arm licensing fees could push device pricing into "premium" territory. The affordable Apple Macbook Air, including used M1 devices, will provide price and performance competition. If enterprises buy Nuvia laptops in volume, then Linux will have a used Arm laptop market in 2-3 years. So.. your test case might be feasible after a year or two of Linux development and optimization. Until then, WSL2 on Windows 11 could be a fallback. For iPad Pro users desperate for portable Linux/BSD VM development with long battery life, Qualcomm-based Arm laptops bring much needed competition to Apple Silicon. If Nuvia devices can run multiple OSS operating systems, it's already a win for users, making possible the Apple-impossible. Ongoing performance improvements will be a bonus.
  - intrasight 2y ago
    Totally agree about "Pro". Imagine if they gave it a real OS. Someone yesterday suggested to dual-boot. At first I dismissed that idea. But after thinking about it, I can see the benefits. They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS. They certainly have the resources to do so. It would open up so many new sales channels for a true tablet.
    - transpute 2y ago
      > They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS. Asahi Linux already runs on Apple Silicon. The EU could try to unlock Apple device boot of owner-authorized operating systems.
      - intrasight 2y ago
        That's another path to having a real OS. And more likely to be realized.
    - tyre 2y ago
      Which sales channels?
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    >artists? architects? Ding ding ding ding ding! The iPad Pro is useful primarily for those people. Or at least it was. The original selling point of the Pro was that it had[0] the Apple Pencil and a larger screen to draw on. The 2021 upgrade gave the option to buy a tablet with 16GB of RAM, which you need for Procreate as that has very strict layer limits. If you look at the cost of dedicated drawing tablets with screens in them, dropping a grand on an iPad Pro and Pencil is surprisingly competitive. As for every other use case... the fact that all these apps have iPad versions now is great, for people with cheaper tablets. The iPad Air comes in 13" now and that'll satisfy all but the most demanding Procreate users anyway, for about the same cost as the Pro had back in 2016 or so. So I dunno. Maybe someone at Apple's iPad division just figured they need a halo product? Or maybe they want to compete with the Microsoft Surface without having to offer the flexibility (and corresponding jank) of a real computer? I dunno. [0] sold separately, which is one of my biggest pet peeves with tablets
    - simonsquiff 2y ago
      What’s sad about the Air is that it’s only a 60hz screen. I’m spoilt now with 120hz on the first gen iPad Pro, the iPad needs it even more than phones (and they need it). So I’m not a demanding user in all other ways but the Air is not satisfying to me, yet.
  - gsinclair 2y ago
    I use an iPad Pro as a teacher. I value the pencil and the screen size. Much of what I do ultimately involves A4 paper, so the screen size is a good match. A lot of teachers now project their iPad screen wirelessly in class, sometimes almost to the exclusion of any other teaching method. I value the high performance both for everyday ease of use and specifically for screen recordings. It is not a laptop replacement; it is a wonderful complement.
- wpm 2y ago
  iPads as a product line sure, but the M4 is only in the Pros at the moment which are likely lower volume than the MacBook Air.
srg0 2y ago
With Logic Pro for iPad they now have applications for all their traditional Mac use cases on iPad. If anything, it feels like Apple is pushing for a switch from low-tier Macs to iPad Pro. And they surely can sell more gadgets and accessories for an iPad than for a laptop.

spenczar5 2y ago

iPads are actually much higher volume than Macs. Apple sells about 2x to 3x as many tablets as laptops. Of course, phones dwarf both.

andy_xor_andrew 2y ago
The iPad Pros, though? I'm very curious how much iPad Pros sell. Out of all the products in Apple's lineup, the iPad Pro confuses me the most. You can tell what a PM inside Apple thinks the iPad Pro is for, based on the presentation: super powerful M4 chip! Use Final Cut Pro, or Garageband, or other desktop apps on the go! Etc etc. But in reality, who actually buys them, instead of an iPad Air? Maybe some people with too much money who want the latest gadgets? Ever since they debuted, the general consensus from tech reviewers on the iPad Pro has been "It's an amazing device, but no reason to buy it if you can buy a MacBook or an iPad Air" Apple really wants this "Pro" concept to exist for iPad Pro, like someone who uses it as their daily work surface. And maybe some people exist like that (artists? architects?) but most of the time when I see an iPad in a "pro" environment (like a pilot using it for nav, or a nurse using it for notes) they're using an old 2018 "regular" iPad.
- transpute 2y ago
  iPadOS 16.3.1 can run virtual machines on M1/M2 silicon, https://old.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/18m0o1h/tutorial_tiny11arm64_vm_on_ipad_m1/?rdt=38058 https://old.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/18m0o1h/tutorial... Hypervisor support was removed from the iOS 16.4 kernel, hopefully it will return in iPadOS 18 for at least some approved devices. If not, Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support.
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    > Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support. I have been seeking someone who’ll be willing to put money on such a claim. I’ll bet the other way. Perchance you’re the person I seek, if you truly believe this?
    - transpute 2y ago
      Which part - launch timing, multicore performance or mainline Linux support?
      - dmitrygr 2y ago
        perf >= M3 while power consumption <= M3, while booted Linux and, say 50%: streaming a video on youtube.com over wifi at min brightness, 50% compiling some C project in a loop, minimum brightness from and to internal SSD. Compared to macOS on M3 doing the same
        transpute 2y ago
        its_a_trap.jpg :) At Qualcomm SoC launch, OSS Linux can't possibly compete with the deep pockets of optimized-shenanigan Windows "drivers" or vertically integrated macOS on Apple Silicon. But the incumbent landscape of Arm laptops for Linux is so desolate, that it can only be improved by the arrival of multiple Arm devices from Tier 1 PC OEMs based on a single SoC family, with skeletal support in mainline Linux. In time, as with Asahi reverse engineering of Apple firmware interfaces, we can have mainline Linux support and multiple Linux distros on enterprise Arm laptops. One risk for MS/Asus/HP/Dell/Lenovo devices based on Qualcomm Nuvia/Oryon/EliteX is that Qualcomm + Arm licensing fees could push device pricing into "premium" territory. The affordable Apple Macbook Air, including used M1 devices, will provide price and performance competition. If enterprises buy Nuvia laptops in volume, then Linux will have a used Arm laptop market in 2-3 years. So.. your test case might be feasible after a year or two of Linux development and optimization. Until then, WSL2 on Windows 11 could be a fallback. For iPad Pro users desperate for portable Linux/BSD VM development with long battery life, Qualcomm-based Arm laptops bring much needed competition to Apple Silicon. If Nuvia devices can run multiple OSS operating systems, it's already a win for users, making possible the Apple-impossible. Ongoing performance improvements will be a bonus.
- intrasight 2y ago
  Totally agree about "Pro". Imagine if they gave it a real OS. Someone yesterday suggested to dual-boot. At first I dismissed that idea. But after thinking about it, I can see the benefits. They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS. They certainly have the resources to do so. It would open up so many new sales channels for a true tablet.
  - transpute 2y ago
    > They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS. Asahi Linux already runs on Apple Silicon. The EU could try to unlock Apple device boot of owner-authorized operating systems.
    - intrasight 2y ago
      That's another path to having a real OS. And more likely to be realized.
  - tyre 2y ago
    Which sales channels?
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  >artists? architects? Ding ding ding ding ding! The iPad Pro is useful primarily for those people. Or at least it was. The original selling point of the Pro was that it had[0] the Apple Pencil and a larger screen to draw on. The 2021 upgrade gave the option to buy a tablet with 16GB of RAM, which you need for Procreate as that has very strict layer limits. If you look at the cost of dedicated drawing tablets with screens in them, dropping a grand on an iPad Pro and Pencil is surprisingly competitive. As for every other use case... the fact that all these apps have iPad versions now is great, for people with cheaper tablets. The iPad Air comes in 13" now and that'll satisfy all but the most demanding Procreate users anyway, for about the same cost as the Pro had back in 2016 or so. So I dunno. Maybe someone at Apple's iPad division just figured they need a halo product? Or maybe they want to compete with the Microsoft Surface without having to offer the flexibility (and corresponding jank) of a real computer? I dunno. [0] sold separately, which is one of my biggest pet peeves with tablets
  - simonsquiff 2y ago
    What’s sad about the Air is that it’s only a 60hz screen. I’m spoilt now with 120hz on the first gen iPad Pro, the iPad needs it even more than phones (and they need it). So I’m not a demanding user in all other ways but the Air is not satisfying to me, yet.
- gsinclair 2y ago
  I use an iPad Pro as a teacher. I value the pencil and the screen size. Much of what I do ultimately involves A4 paper, so the screen size is a good match. A lot of teachers now project their iPad screen wirelessly in class, sometimes almost to the exclusion of any other teaching method. I value the high performance both for everyday ease of use and specifically for screen recordings. It is not a laptop replacement; it is a wonderful complement.
wpm 2y ago
iPads as a product line sure, but the M4 is only in the Pros at the moment which are likely lower volume than the MacBook Air.

srg0 2y ago

With Logic Pro for iPad they now have applications for all their traditional Mac use cases on iPad. If anything, it feels like Apple is pushing for a switch from low-tier Macs to iPad Pro. And they surely can sell more gadgets and accessories for an iPad than for a laptop.