12 ms·

Skimming the letter makes it look like another attempt at pushing through their Code of Conduct (RFC98) targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry", whatever

Skimming the letter makes it look like another attempt at pushing through their Code of Conduct (RFC98) targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry", whatever that means. Now going a step further by erasing the people in charge.

busterarm 2y ago
The article I linked here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727) provides evidence for exactly that.
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" Is targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" a bad thing?
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  Making up dubious connections to wrongthink is a bad thing.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
  When, for people pushing this targeting, fascism/bigotry means having a branch in your repo names master I absolutely believe targeting ideas rooted in fascism/bigotry is a bad thing.
  - tripdout 2y ago
    On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. On the other hand, I don't have a strong attachment at all to naming a branch "master" and can easily rename it without a second thought.
    - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
      > On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". After that I changed my mind and name all of my branches main and give a little push to projects I'm part of to do the same. Plus, words do have power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc
      - zer00eyz 2y ago
        > I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". Master craftsman? Master mold? Master copy? Head Master... Just because this word was used in relation to slavery doesn't curtail its use in language, removing it only serves to focus its "power". Also, thats not how language works. At all. It is never how language worked. An Australian and an American are going to have a very different reaction to the word cunt. Candidly, the erasing of words from language for any reason is very 1984, it's a book you might want to read, its a good primer to understanding how control of language is one of the features of fascism. You should probably read up on how linguistic purity was part and parcel of Italian and to a lesser degree German control of the people.
        Zetaphor 2y ago
        > Master craftsman? Master mold? Master copy? Head Master... Just because this word was used in relation to slavery doesn't curtail its use in language, removing it only serves to focus its "power". Except none of those examples are relevant comparisons. It's well documented that the reason the default branch name was master traces back to Bitkeeper, which was using the master/slave nomenclature. > Also, thats not how language works. At all. It is never how language worked. An Australian and an American are going to have a very different reaction to the word cunt. Master and slave have universal meaning across all English dialects. If you're going to make an argument against this change on the basis of semantics, at least get your facts right.
  - elktown 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    Oh look someone brought a horse carcass to the party. God forbid a single implementation of popular software change a default in a fairly meaningless way. Especially since the older term hasn't been accurate in software development for like a decade. Does anyone even ship/deploy the "master" branch anymore? But no, while we should dislike these folks for saying "we don't want a military contractor to sponsor our event", we should 100% get behind "this private company changed a term and I don't like that so obviously they are wrongthinkers"
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  Based on how these things have historically tuned out, yes. This is very problematic. The root of the problem is that it is basically impossible to defend yourself against the accusation that you are secretly a fascist. If you say yes, you admit to being a fascist, if you say no, you're a lying fascist. If you question why the accusation is levied against someone else, you're defending a fascist, if you speak out against the proceedings, you're defending fascism. The only way to prevent accusations of harboring secret fascist sympathies is to deflect the accusation by lashing out against others with the same sort of accusation, thus demonstrating that you are not secretly a fascist. This is a dynamic that has repeated itself many times, it's the engine behind countless actual witch hunts, but also metaphorical ones such as the McCarthy-era red scare, the ideological persecution under Stalin.
  - dwb 2y ago
    I don't get how this follows; no-one needs to be a secret anything, and the aim isn't even personal. Targeting "ideas rooted in fascism and bigotry" means to oppose the discursive ideas and concepts as they are put forth in the community, and the resulting concrete actions, that come from fascism and bigotry – specifically not the people or private thoughts.
    - marginalia_nu 2y ago
      Even if you deal just with ideas and somehow separate them from the people who promote them, what mechanism do you propose to use to decide whether an idea is rooted in bigotry or fascism? The accusation is incredibly nebulous and can be used to derail almost any proposal. For the sake of argument, let's say I put forward the charge that the policy itself is rooted in bigotry. Can you prove that it is not?
      - dwb 2y ago
        Of course not, but asking for a "proof" for a question like that is a category error. It will be decided by whatever the group decision process is, which would have to be present for all the other non-trivial, and yes, fuzzy things that have to be decided, both technical and social.
- fireflash38 2y ago
  What do you do when people who claim to be targeting fascist ideals also use the same tactics as those they're targeting?
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    You make them take all the words they dont like out of their copy of 1984.
  - _cenw 2y ago
    Then they'd be breaking the RFCs stated goal. The possibility of a stated ideal not working doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ideal. Though I suspect my definition of using fascist tactics likely differs from yours in this case, but this isn't the space to re-litigate the paradox of tolerance.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Either side needs to be making factual and objective claims then. Slinging accusations of facism and retorting with the "you're the real facist" isn't going anywhere. In practice there's probably no facism either way, but it's an easy and loaded term to throw around.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawa14223 2y ago
  It's scope creep for reproducible package build system, so yes in this case it is. edit: replaced 'feature' with 'scope' realized I typed an unclear word.
- skissane 2y ago
  Yes, because "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" is a vague phrase lacking any clear definition, and risks becoming a cudgel for cliques to use to shut down anyone who disagrees with them.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Slippery slope fallacy, however I agree the wording is too vague and needs to be more specified. Facism / bigotry are catch-all terms for a broad range of things, and the RFC should link to or include the definitions they consider, with a caveat that they may be updated at a later time.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > Slippery slope fallacy How is what I said a "slippery slope"? And what makes it fallacious? > Facism / bigotry are catch-all terms for a broad range of things Why not then drop those terms, and replace them with more specific terminology?

busterarm 2y ago

The article I linked here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727) provides evidence for exactly that.

ParetoOptimal 2y ago

> targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" Is targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" a bad thing?

nh23423fefe 2y ago
Making up dubious connections to wrongthink is a bad thing.
rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
When, for people pushing this targeting, fascism/bigotry means having a branch in your repo names master I absolutely believe targeting ideas rooted in fascism/bigotry is a bad thing.
- tripdout 2y ago
  On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. On the other hand, I don't have a strong attachment at all to naming a branch "master" and can easily rename it without a second thought.
  - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
    > On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". After that I changed my mind and name all of my branches main and give a little push to projects I'm part of to do the same. Plus, words do have power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc
    - zer00eyz 2y ago
      > I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". Master craftsman? Master mold? Master copy? Head Master... Just because this word was used in relation to slavery doesn't curtail its use in language, removing it only serves to focus its "power". Also, thats not how language works. At all. It is never how language worked. An Australian and an American are going to have a very different reaction to the word cunt. Candidly, the erasing of words from language for any reason is very 1984, it's a book you might want to read, its a good primer to understanding how control of language is one of the features of fascism. You should probably read up on how linguistic purity was part and parcel of Italian and to a lesser degree German control of the people.
      - Zetaphor 2y ago
        > Master craftsman? Master mold? Master copy? Head Master... Just because this word was used in relation to slavery doesn't curtail its use in language, removing it only serves to focus its "power". Except none of those examples are relevant comparisons. It's well documented that the reason the default branch name was master traces back to Bitkeeper, which was using the master/slave nomenclature. > Also, thats not how language works. At all. It is never how language worked. An Australian and an American are going to have a very different reaction to the word cunt. Master and slave have universal meaning across all English dialects. If you're going to make an argument against this change on the basis of semantics, at least get your facts right.
- elktown 2y ago
  [flagged]
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Oh look someone brought a horse carcass to the party. God forbid a single implementation of popular software change a default in a fairly meaningless way. Especially since the older term hasn't been accurate in software development for like a decade. Does anyone even ship/deploy the "master" branch anymore? But no, while we should dislike these folks for saying "we don't want a military contractor to sponsor our event", we should 100% get behind "this private company changed a term and I don't like that so obviously they are wrongthinkers"
marginalia_nu 2y ago
Based on how these things have historically tuned out, yes. This is very problematic. The root of the problem is that it is basically impossible to defend yourself against the accusation that you are secretly a fascist. If you say yes, you admit to being a fascist, if you say no, you're a lying fascist. If you question why the accusation is levied against someone else, you're defending a fascist, if you speak out against the proceedings, you're defending fascism. The only way to prevent accusations of harboring secret fascist sympathies is to deflect the accusation by lashing out against others with the same sort of accusation, thus demonstrating that you are not secretly a fascist. This is a dynamic that has repeated itself many times, it's the engine behind countless actual witch hunts, but also metaphorical ones such as the McCarthy-era red scare, the ideological persecution under Stalin.
- dwb 2y ago
  I don't get how this follows; no-one needs to be a secret anything, and the aim isn't even personal. Targeting "ideas rooted in fascism and bigotry" means to oppose the discursive ideas and concepts as they are put forth in the community, and the resulting concrete actions, that come from fascism and bigotry – specifically not the people or private thoughts.
  - marginalia_nu 2y ago
    Even if you deal just with ideas and somehow separate them from the people who promote them, what mechanism do you propose to use to decide whether an idea is rooted in bigotry or fascism? The accusation is incredibly nebulous and can be used to derail almost any proposal. For the sake of argument, let's say I put forward the charge that the policy itself is rooted in bigotry. Can you prove that it is not?
    - dwb 2y ago
      Of course not, but asking for a "proof" for a question like that is a category error. It will be decided by whatever the group decision process is, which would have to be present for all the other non-trivial, and yes, fuzzy things that have to be decided, both technical and social.
fireflash38 2y ago
What do you do when people who claim to be targeting fascist ideals also use the same tactics as those they're targeting?
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  You make them take all the words they dont like out of their copy of 1984.
- _cenw 2y ago
  Then they'd be breaking the RFCs stated goal. The possibility of a stated ideal not working doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ideal. Though I suspect my definition of using fascist tactics likely differs from yours in this case, but this isn't the space to re-litigate the paradox of tolerance.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Either side needs to be making factual and objective claims then. Slinging accusations of facism and retorting with the "you're the real facist" isn't going anywhere. In practice there's probably no facism either way, but it's an easy and loaded term to throw around.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwawa14223 2y ago
It's scope creep for reproducible package build system, so yes in this case it is. edit: replaced 'feature' with 'scope' realized I typed an unclear word.
skissane 2y ago
Yes, because "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" is a vague phrase lacking any clear definition, and risks becoming a cudgel for cliques to use to shut down anyone who disagrees with them.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Slippery slope fallacy, however I agree the wording is too vague and needs to be more specified. Facism / bigotry are catch-all terms for a broad range of things, and the RFC should link to or include the definitions they consider, with a caveat that they may be updated at a later time.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > Slippery slope fallacy How is what I said a "slippery slope"? And what makes it fallacious? > Facism / bigotry are catch-all terms for a broad range of things Why not then drop those terms, and replace them with more specific terminology?