6 ms·

Selling stuff to dictatorships is bad, even if you make money from it.

by Johnssmithss 2y ago

asdasdsddd 2y ago
Sanctions have nothing to do with style of government, it's all about geopolitics.
geff82 2y ago
Then what about ending all trade with China? Or what is the difference?
- Johnssmithss 2y ago
  I would be happy to see a long-term plan to phase out trade with China. Of course that couldn't change from one day to the next, but I wouldn't mind a plan to phase out trade with countries like China.
thriftwy 2y ago
It seems that most of the world (population- and GDP-wise) is drifting towards authoritarian rule with immutable Dear Leader. Russia, then Turkey, then China, India is arguably getting there too. You're placing Iran in the same bucket. Maghreb countries? Middle East? Central Asia? As far as dictatorships go, Iran actually has some political life. That would eventually make your position untenable.
- Johnssmithss 2y ago
  > That would eventually make your position untenable. When exactly would it be untenable for me to not support trade with authoritarian regimes?
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    Then you need a part which is only produced in China, or a chemical compound which is only produced in India, or you need a plane ride and it has titanium parts from Russia? I expect a significant change of tone once you need to change your own usage patterns because of your principles. Or a straight out "fight dictatorships, but only when it's convenient".
swarnie 2y ago
Why? Is one system provably better than all others and therefore must dominate? I personally find the idea of an Oligarchical Republic to be a bit batty nuggets... Do i get to trade? Am i up against the wall in your world?
- Johnssmithss 2y ago
  If you are against democracy then yes you may be up against the wall. Tough luck.
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    This was the reason why Cuba was kept out of the “organizations of Americas”. When they finally let this stupid reasoning go, it was too late. And Cuba was no longer interested in being part of the org. Democracy is a doorstop for foreign enterprises and influence. The locals suffer.
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    The U.S. has certainly been against Democracy more than once.
  - dang 2y ago
    Please don't use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. The combination of shallow + inflammatory on divisive topics is guaranteed to make HN discussion worse, at least for its intended purpose, which is curious conversation.
    - Johnssmithss 2y ago
      Alright. Actually I don't use HN primarily for that. Have been posting here for years and rarely go into politic discussions. I get your point though.
xnyan 2y ago
First, sanctions on Iran have zero to do with its authoritarian government - the US has no problem selling to authoritarian governments - but rather the geopolitical conflict stemming from a slew of lovely US actions such as overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran and installing a repressive and brutal dictator which destabilized the country to a degree that the events of 1979 and after were possible. The efficacy of economic sanctions is complicated and debated, but one can absolutely say there is little compelling evidence that they result in positive outcomes for anybody.
nashashmi 2y ago
I dont think we have a policy of sanctioning dictatorships. Dictators in Saudi Arabia too. And Iran is not a dictatorship. (Surprised?)
- cutemonster 2y ago
  It's a dictatorship. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    That's not a dictatorship. It's a leader without powers to make laws. The leader makes decrees. And the leader is selected by a small council. It is akin to the monarchy in Britain.
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      Have a look at Wikipedia -- there can be a small group of people who are the dictators, doesn't have to be just one: "A dictatorship is an autocratic form of government which is characterized by a leader, or a group of leaders, who hold governmental powers with few to no limitations." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship
      - nashashmi 2y ago
        Except the leader is not a group of leaders. It is just one leader. And he answers the council who can vote to remove him. This is far from a dictatorship
ok123456 2y ago
So, we're going to stop selling weapons to Israel?
- crowcroft 2y ago
  Could you expand on this, my understanding was that Israel held relatively free and fair elections.
  - jandrese 2y ago
    In some ways that makes it worse. When Hamas abuses the population we can at least say that the majority of people have never had a chance to vote for anyone else. In contrast the Israelis chose Bibi. This is what the majority of the population wants.
    - crowcroft 2y ago
      Isn't there some form of governance that chose Hamas as leaders? I might not understand the distinction from how Gaza is governed vs. Israel though. I'm also curious if the motivation for abuses as call it matters. I think there was some significant event that Hamas coordinated that then prompted a response from Israel?
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        There was an election eighteen years ago in 2006; Hamas won a plurality but not a majority. So most Palestinians didn't vote for them then, and since then none have. Most Palestinians alive today weren't old enough, or even alive, to have voted in 2006. So you really can't call Hamas's rule democratic in any meaningful sense.
  - olliej 2y ago
    Yes, just like apartheid SA had free and fair elections. Palestinians have no rights in their homeland, Israel invaded it and every time they take more land they simply claim the original occupants aren’t part of the country their home is/was in.
segasaturn 2y ago
The U.S. President fist-bumped with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia last year... I don't think authoritarianism is at issue here.
- skhunted 2y ago
  The U.S. funded and actively supported Saddam. We don’t mind trading with and funding dictators so long as they are our dictator. That said, the IRGC deserves to be eliminated and it is OK to sanction Iran. The petty dictatorships are forming their own trading club: China, Russia, Iran, North Korea.
lupusreal 2y ago
America doesn't care whether a country is a democracy or a dictatorship. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship and America does business with them, even sells them weapons to murder Yemenis with. Iran was a democracy but America and the UK deliberately undid that.

Selling stuff to dictatorships is bad, even if you make money from it.

asdasdsddd 2y ago

Sanctions have nothing to do with style of government, it's all about geopolitics.

geff82 2y ago

Then what about ending all trade with China? Or what is the difference?

Johnssmithss 2y ago
I would be happy to see a long-term plan to phase out trade with China. Of course that couldn't change from one day to the next, but I wouldn't mind a plan to phase out trade with countries like China.

thriftwy 2y ago

It seems that most of the world (population- and GDP-wise) is drifting towards authoritarian rule with immutable Dear Leader. Russia, then Turkey, then China, India is arguably getting there too. You're placing Iran in the same bucket. Maghreb countries? Middle East? Central Asia? As far as dictatorships go, Iran actually has some political life. That would eventually make your position untenable.

Johnssmithss 2y ago
> That would eventually make your position untenable. When exactly would it be untenable for me to not support trade with authoritarian regimes?
- thriftwy 2y ago
  Then you need a part which is only produced in China, or a chemical compound which is only produced in India, or you need a plane ride and it has titanium parts from Russia? I expect a significant change of tone once you need to change your own usage patterns because of your principles. Or a straight out "fight dictatorships, but only when it's convenient".

swarnie 2y ago

Why? Is one system provably better than all others and therefore must dominate? I personally find the idea of an Oligarchical Republic to be a bit batty nuggets... Do i get to trade? Am i up against the wall in your world?

Johnssmithss 2y ago
If you are against democracy then yes you may be up against the wall. Tough luck.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  This was the reason why Cuba was kept out of the “organizations of Americas”. When they finally let this stupid reasoning go, it was too late. And Cuba was no longer interested in being part of the org. Democracy is a doorstop for foreign enterprises and influence. The locals suffer.
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  The U.S. has certainly been against Democracy more than once.
- dang 2y ago
  Please don't use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. The combination of shallow + inflammatory on divisive topics is guaranteed to make HN discussion worse, at least for its intended purpose, which is curious conversation.
  - Johnssmithss 2y ago
    Alright. Actually I don't use HN primarily for that. Have been posting here for years and rarely go into politic discussions. I get your point though.

xnyan 2y ago

First, sanctions on Iran have zero to do with its authoritarian government - the US has no problem selling to authoritarian governments - but rather the geopolitical conflict stemming from a slew of lovely US actions such as overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran and installing a repressive and brutal dictator which destabilized the country to a degree that the events of 1979 and after were possible. The efficacy of economic sanctions is complicated and debated, but one can absolutely say there is little compelling evidence that they result in positive outcomes for anybody.

nashashmi 2y ago

I dont think we have a policy of sanctioning dictatorships. Dictators in Saudi Arabia too. And Iran is not a dictatorship. (Surprised?)

cutemonster 2y ago
It's a dictatorship. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran
- nashashmi 2y ago
  That's not a dictatorship. It's a leader without powers to make laws. The leader makes decrees. And the leader is selected by a small council. It is akin to the monarchy in Britain.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    Have a look at Wikipedia -- there can be a small group of people who are the dictators, doesn't have to be just one: "A dictatorship is an autocratic form of government which is characterized by a leader, or a group of leaders, who hold governmental powers with few to no limitations." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship
    - nashashmi 2y ago
      Except the leader is not a group of leaders. It is just one leader. And he answers the council who can vote to remove him. This is far from a dictatorship

ok123456 2y ago

So, we're going to stop selling weapons to Israel?

crowcroft 2y ago
Could you expand on this, my understanding was that Israel held relatively free and fair elections.
- jandrese 2y ago
  In some ways that makes it worse. When Hamas abuses the population we can at least say that the majority of people have never had a chance to vote for anyone else. In contrast the Israelis chose Bibi. This is what the majority of the population wants.
  - crowcroft 2y ago
    Isn't there some form of governance that chose Hamas as leaders? I might not understand the distinction from how Gaza is governed vs. Israel though. I'm also curious if the motivation for abuses as call it matters. I think there was some significant event that Hamas coordinated that then prompted a response from Israel?
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      There was an election eighteen years ago in 2006; Hamas won a plurality but not a majority. So most Palestinians didn't vote for them then, and since then none have. Most Palestinians alive today weren't old enough, or even alive, to have voted in 2006. So you really can't call Hamas's rule democratic in any meaningful sense.
- olliej 2y ago
  Yes, just like apartheid SA had free and fair elections. Palestinians have no rights in their homeland, Israel invaded it and every time they take more land they simply claim the original occupants aren’t part of the country their home is/was in.

segasaturn 2y ago

The U.S. President fist-bumped with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia last year... I don't think authoritarianism is at issue here.

skhunted 2y ago
The U.S. funded and actively supported Saddam. We don’t mind trading with and funding dictators so long as they are our dictator. That said, the IRGC deserves to be eliminated and it is OK to sanction Iran. The petty dictatorships are forming their own trading club: China, Russia, Iran, North Korea.

lupusreal 2y ago

America doesn't care whether a country is a democracy or a dictatorship. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship and America does business with them, even sells them weapons to murder Yemenis with. Iran was a democracy but America and the UK deliberately undid that.