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I initially wrote this as a reply to a comment by "NotGMan" mentioning fasting/paleo that got flagged. They could have approached the subject more delicately bu

by cjdell 2y ago

I initially wrote this as a reply to a comment by "NotGMan" mentioning fasting/paleo that got flagged. They could have approached the subject more delicately but I believe they have a point. About 3 years ago I had gut issues so bad I thought I was close to death. NHS couldn't see any problems and were basically telling me I'd gone nuts. They refused to do any further testing. After a year of suffering I tried a 7 day water-only fast and the pain finally went away. I broke fast with only paleo foods and stayed that way for 6 months. I gradually introduced other foods after that period with the last being gluten about 2 years after the initial fast. I am almost cured, however I will never abuse my gut in the same way again. Less carbs, more salads... This is just my personal experience of course but I have discovered so many other people with similar gut issues who are also being ignored by their doctors that you can't blame one for wondering if there is a conspiracy at play. I wouldn't have believed any of this a few years ago but now I have serious doubts in modern medicine's ability to deal with chronic health issues, especially in the gut. We do eat so many more processed foods (and other things) that it doesn't require that much of a stretch to the imagination that diet is a part of the problem or indeed the root cause. Lack of openmindedness bothers me immensely and the nature of human biology is under no obligation to fit into tidy boxes for the sake of our understanding. The real world is fuzzy.

Buttons840 2y ago
Decades ago, about 30% of the people who had celiac disease would waste away and die, especially children. Until a doctor noticed that if the people ate 12 bananas a day they seemed to do better. Of course, 12 bananas a day is a kooky diet, but people who eat 12 bananas a day tend to eat less of everything else, including less bread and gluten and so they would do better. Later science figured out bread was a problem and then eventually identified the specific protein (gluten) that effects people with celiac disease. I think there are other foods that bother different people, but we haven't managed pin down exactly which foods bother which people. It's a hard problem, but surely there are other cases of "if you just avoid this specific food ingredient, you will recover", just like celiac disease. So, on the one hand, sharing advice about which diets worked and didn't work can be helpful (like the 12 bananas a day diet). On the other hand, "I tried an unusual diet, which also happens to have a good amount of marketing behind it, and things are better" is one of the most common bits of advice you'll find for many diseases, and the problem is everyone recommends a different diet. A relative of mine has Chrons disease and was close to death before it was diagnosed, the doctors recommended a junk food diet basically, high calorie foods with almost no fiber, and that's how he eats now and is doing much better. I don't recommend everyone follow the same diet, but for whatever it's worth, eating junk food has helped my relative, true story. And this is what I mean, there's so much conflicting advice about which diet to try. I can't fault people for trying different diets, because I believe there are many unknown disease, like celiac disease, which can be treated with an exact (but as of yet unknown) diet. I also don't fault people for giving up and not enthusiastically trying every diet-of-the-week that gets suggested, it's tiring. Also, it's notable that the diets with the most marketing tend to be the ones most recommended.
- cjdell 2y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to reply and not just downvoting me. That is enlightening and I'm glad your relative is in better health now. I'm certainly not suggesting there is a single treatment plan that'll work for everyone. As I said biology is fuzzy and it annoys me when people try to debug health issues like they were pieces of software. Discussing these things openly does help however.
  - ibash 2y ago
    I have chrohns. The diet change recommendation is something we hear often. For me my doctor recommends a mediterranean diet and to avoid emulsifiers, but it’s definitely not a cure and not universal. If you go look at chrohns forums you’ll see a lot of experimenting and a lot of different diets because (to my understanding) chrohns has a lot of different and unknown causes. For me high fiber foods can put me out of commission for the next day, for others it’s the opposite.
    - wholinator2 2y ago
      Yeah, there was a vegan girl once who heard i ha Crohns' and just would not stop telling me to go vegan. Apparently it had helped her IBD but she seemed incapable of believing that i had tried all that and that eggs and meat were the best diet for me. High protein, high calorie. I'll eat vegetables with make but always well done. If i ate vegan I'd probably be dead in 2 weeks.
- yterdy 2y ago
  Taking this tangent and riding it: it's well-known that undiagnosed celiac disease in children stunts growth. After diagnosis and transition to a gluten-free diet, there is usually a period of catch-up growth (which unfortunately does not close the gap fully, usually). If there are a bunch of these silent sources of malnutrition, it could - alongside things like poor perinatal care for mothers and children, as well as the various sequelae of America's high level of economic inequality among developed nations - be one piece of the puzzle for why the adult height of Americans has stalled when compared to Europe (which would be an empirical finding and not just gussied-up scientific racism).
Workaccount2 2y ago
Too many doctors erroneously just go along with "If the [front line] tests show nothing, it is nothing", such a shame.
loudmax 2y ago
I do want to offer a limited defense of the medical community's "lack of open-mindedness". By the nature of their job, their work is inherently life risking. Most of us working in IT can afford to make experiments that doctor's cannot afford. I may be willing to try some unconventional approaches if the cost of error is an application crash and nuisance to the end user. If the cost of error is death of the user, I'm going to be far more conservative. When a patient dies, society will treat a doctor very differently if it's perceived that the doctor was being unorthodox compared to too cautious. This doesn't mean that too cautious doesn't also cost lives. It's just really difficult to balance when the stakes are so high. Anyway, good on you for taking ownership of your own health, and thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you continue to get better.
- abecedarius 2y ago
  I'd respect this defense of medicine if medicine had resisted the U.S. dietary guidelines, which started as pseudoscience chosen by politics in the 1970s. Instead of being conservative about evidence and risks, the profession mostly was conservative about questioning that imposed consensus.
dghughes 2y ago
I recall on an ask reddit a group of gastroenterologists were answering questions. One thing that stood out was they said "let your stomach rumble it's a necessary part of gut health". Fasting would help initiate that, but I think so many people these days never stop eating long enough for their stomach to rumble.
- cjdell 2y ago
  I have also read that our gut doesn't like being in constant operation. Our ancestors didn't have access to food 24/7 and it makes sense our bodies adapted to take advantage of this by entering a self-cleaning state during long periods without consumption.
pants2 2y ago
I'm convinced that dietary restrictions are extremely powerful for treating Crohn's and similar diseases, but patient adherence is so bafflingly low that the treatment may as well not exist in doctors' eyes. Just as an example of a more studied case, the probability that an overweight person reattains normal weight through diet and exercise is well under 1% [1]. Now consider that diets for Crohn's (like a water fast and strict elimination diet) are considerably more difficult to follow than a weight loss diet - it's no wonder that diet appears to be ineffective for most people. After a similar experience to yours I haven't had any foods with the 8 major allergens (and a few more select things) for over seven years, aside from a handful of accidents early on. That's not an easy diet to follow, but gets easier with time and experience. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4539812/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4539812/
- wholinator2 2y ago
  What are the 8 major allergens you're avoiding? Do you avoid anything else?
  - pants2 2y ago
    The 8 most common allergens as identified by the FD: milk, eggs, fish, Crustacean shellfish, tree nuts, peanuts, wheat, and soybeans. These are called out on all packaged foods, which makes it easier, though I'm OK with some derivatives like soy lecithin. I also avoid yeast (brewer's or baker's) and a few other small things like black pepper. I've been in remission for long enough that I could probably start eating a lot of these things again, but I have no desire to go through another Crohn's episode, so I'll probably continue to avoid these foods for the next 40-50 years (unless there's a miracle Crohn's cure in the meantime). After that, as I understand, a weakening immune system from old age makes Crohn's symptoms significantly less likely or severe.
aeblyve 2y ago
Indeed. It is difficult to have good-faith conversations about this subject with others sometimes because trust in "The System" (as it were) is often a core of peoples' relating to society. Western medicine does have excellent treatments for problems like appendicitis (in my case...), but is very much lacking in the holism that prevents the issues to begin with. A quote from Ray Peat: >“Besides fasting, or chronic protein deficiency, the common causes of hypothyroidism are excessive stress or “aerobic” (i.e. anaerobic) exercise, and diets containing beans, lentils, nuts, unsaturated fats (including carotene), and undercooked broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and mustard greens. Many health conscious people become hypothyroid with a synergistic program of undercooked vegetables, legumes instead of animal proteins, oils instead of butter, carotene instead of vitamin A, and breathless exercise instead of stimulating life.” We see that health-consciousness, when lead somewhere by ideology, is not in itself sufficient to make progress.
polishdude20 2y ago
Have you noticed any trigger foods since then? I'm kind in the same boat as you were in. Nothing live threatening but definitely daily annoyance of gut issues that impacts my life. Mind sharing some meals you eat for breakfast, lunch, dinner? I'd love to try some new healthier options.

by cjdell 2y ago

Buttons840 2y ago

Decades ago, about 30% of the people who had celiac disease would waste away and die, especially children. Until a doctor noticed that if the people ate 12 bananas a day they seemed to do better. Of course, 12 bananas a day is a kooky diet, but people who eat 12 bananas a day tend to eat less of everything else, including less bread and gluten and so they would do better. Later science figured out bread was a problem and then eventually identified the specific protein (gluten) that effects people with celiac disease. I think there are other foods that bother different people, but we haven't managed pin down exactly which foods bother which people. It's a hard problem, but surely there are other cases of "if you just avoid this specific food ingredient, you will recover", just like celiac disease. So, on the one hand, sharing advice about which diets worked and didn't work can be helpful (like the 12 bananas a day diet). On the other hand, "I tried an unusual diet, which also happens to have a good amount of marketing behind it, and things are better" is one of the most common bits of advice you'll find for many diseases, and the problem is everyone recommends a different diet. A relative of mine has Chrons disease and was close to death before it was diagnosed, the doctors recommended a junk food diet basically, high calorie foods with almost no fiber, and that's how he eats now and is doing much better. I don't recommend everyone follow the same diet, but for whatever it's worth, eating junk food has helped my relative, true story. And this is what I mean, there's so much conflicting advice about which diet to try. I can't fault people for trying different diets, because I believe there are many unknown disease, like celiac disease, which can be treated with an exact (but as of yet unknown) diet. I also don't fault people for giving up and not enthusiastically trying every diet-of-the-week that gets suggested, it's tiring. Also, it's notable that the diets with the most marketing tend to be the ones most recommended.

cjdell 2y ago
Thank you for taking the time to reply and not just downvoting me. That is enlightening and I'm glad your relative is in better health now. I'm certainly not suggesting there is a single treatment plan that'll work for everyone. As I said biology is fuzzy and it annoys me when people try to debug health issues like they were pieces of software. Discussing these things openly does help however.
- ibash 2y ago
  I have chrohns. The diet change recommendation is something we hear often. For me my doctor recommends a mediterranean diet and to avoid emulsifiers, but it’s definitely not a cure and not universal. If you go look at chrohns forums you’ll see a lot of experimenting and a lot of different diets because (to my understanding) chrohns has a lot of different and unknown causes. For me high fiber foods can put me out of commission for the next day, for others it’s the opposite.
  - wholinator2 2y ago
    Yeah, there was a vegan girl once who heard i ha Crohns' and just would not stop telling me to go vegan. Apparently it had helped her IBD but she seemed incapable of believing that i had tried all that and that eggs and meat were the best diet for me. High protein, high calorie. I'll eat vegetables with make but always well done. If i ate vegan I'd probably be dead in 2 weeks.
yterdy 2y ago
Taking this tangent and riding it: it's well-known that undiagnosed celiac disease in children stunts growth. After diagnosis and transition to a gluten-free diet, there is usually a period of catch-up growth (which unfortunately does not close the gap fully, usually). If there are a bunch of these silent sources of malnutrition, it could - alongside things like poor perinatal care for mothers and children, as well as the various sequelae of America's high level of economic inequality among developed nations - be one piece of the puzzle for why the adult height of Americans has stalled when compared to Europe (which would be an empirical finding and not just gussied-up scientific racism).

Workaccount2 2y ago

Too many doctors erroneously just go along with "If the [front line] tests show nothing, it is nothing", such a shame.

loudmax 2y ago

I do want to offer a limited defense of the medical community's "lack of open-mindedness". By the nature of their job, their work is inherently life risking. Most of us working in IT can afford to make experiments that doctor's cannot afford. I may be willing to try some unconventional approaches if the cost of error is an application crash and nuisance to the end user. If the cost of error is death of the user, I'm going to be far more conservative. When a patient dies, society will treat a doctor very differently if it's perceived that the doctor was being unorthodox compared to too cautious. This doesn't mean that too cautious doesn't also cost lives. It's just really difficult to balance when the stakes are so high. Anyway, good on you for taking ownership of your own health, and thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you continue to get better.

abecedarius 2y ago
I'd respect this defense of medicine if medicine had resisted the U.S. dietary guidelines, which started as pseudoscience chosen by politics in the 1970s. Instead of being conservative about evidence and risks, the profession mostly was conservative about questioning that imposed consensus.

dghughes 2y ago

I recall on an ask reddit a group of gastroenterologists were answering questions. One thing that stood out was they said "let your stomach rumble it's a necessary part of gut health". Fasting would help initiate that, but I think so many people these days never stop eating long enough for their stomach to rumble.

cjdell 2y ago
I have also read that our gut doesn't like being in constant operation. Our ancestors didn't have access to food 24/7 and it makes sense our bodies adapted to take advantage of this by entering a self-cleaning state during long periods without consumption.

pants2 2y ago

I'm convinced that dietary restrictions are extremely powerful for treating Crohn's and similar diseases, but patient adherence is so bafflingly low that the treatment may as well not exist in doctors' eyes. Just as an example of a more studied case, the probability that an overweight person reattains normal weight through diet and exercise is well under 1% [1]. Now consider that diets for Crohn's (like a water fast and strict elimination diet) are considerably more difficult to follow than a weight loss diet - it's no wonder that diet appears to be ineffective for most people. After a similar experience to yours I haven't had any foods with the 8 major allergens (and a few more select things) for over seven years, aside from a handful of accidents early on. That's not an easy diet to follow, but gets easier with time and experience. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4539812/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4539812/

wholinator2 2y ago
What are the 8 major allergens you're avoiding? Do you avoid anything else?
- pants2 2y ago
  The 8 most common allergens as identified by the FD: milk, eggs, fish, Crustacean shellfish, tree nuts, peanuts, wheat, and soybeans. These are called out on all packaged foods, which makes it easier, though I'm OK with some derivatives like soy lecithin. I also avoid yeast (brewer's or baker's) and a few other small things like black pepper. I've been in remission for long enough that I could probably start eating a lot of these things again, but I have no desire to go through another Crohn's episode, so I'll probably continue to avoid these foods for the next 40-50 years (unless there's a miracle Crohn's cure in the meantime). After that, as I understand, a weakening immune system from old age makes Crohn's symptoms significantly less likely or severe.

aeblyve 2y ago

Indeed. It is difficult to have good-faith conversations about this subject with others sometimes because trust in "The System" (as it were) is often a core of peoples' relating to society. Western medicine does have excellent treatments for problems like appendicitis (in my case...), but is very much lacking in the holism that prevents the issues to begin with. A quote from Ray Peat: >“Besides fasting, or chronic protein deficiency, the common causes of hypothyroidism are excessive stress or “aerobic” (i.e. anaerobic) exercise, and diets containing beans, lentils, nuts, unsaturated fats (including carotene), and undercooked broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and mustard greens. Many health conscious people become hypothyroid with a synergistic program of undercooked vegetables, legumes instead of animal proteins, oils instead of butter, carotene instead of vitamin A, and breathless exercise instead of stimulating life.” We see that health-consciousness, when lead somewhere by ideology, is not in itself sufficient to make progress.

polishdude20 2y ago

Have you noticed any trigger foods since then? I'm kind in the same boat as you were in. Nothing live threatening but definitely daily annoyance of gut issues that impacts my life. Mind sharing some meals you eat for breakfast, lunch, dinner? I'd love to try some new healthier options.