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Key quote from the article: > Many have argued that the lack of large-scale applications for the past ten years proves that crypto is useless. I have always ar

by Mahn 2y ago

Key quote from the article: > Many have argued that the lack of large-scale applications for the past ten years proves that crypto is useless. I have always argued against this: pretty much every crypto application that is not financial speculation depends on low fees - and so while we have high fees, we should not be surprised that we mainly see financial speculation! > Now that we have blobs, this key constraint that has been holding us back all this time is starting to melt away. Fees are finally much lower; my statement from seven years ago that the internet of money should not cost more than five cents per transaction is finally coming true. --- All of this depends on so called "Layer 2s", which adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user. I'm skeptical that this is best way to solve the scalability issues that plague cryptocurrency, but I will say that this looks to me like it has a much better shot of succeeding that anything Bitcoin has ever attempted to do on this front.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dylkil 2y ago
> which adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user Not exactly, L2s are being abstracted away, end users eventually wont even be aware what chain they are interacting with without tracing the tx
- ASinclair 2y ago
  If you don’t know which chain you’re interacting with how can you trust your transactions are secured by a chain at all?
  - sainez 2y ago
    How does this differ from e.g. online banking? Does every user manually check encryption algorithms and keys?
danpalmer 2y ago
5 cents per transaction is high for many parts of the world, and exceptionally high if every interaction in normal life is turned into a financial transaction.
- kinakomochidayo 2y ago
  It'll come down even more as blobs are increased, and PeerDAS is implemented
- medo-bear 2y ago
  What parts of the world? In non developed countries bank fees are actually higher than in the West. In Bosnia a most basic bank account costs about $3 per month, or 60 Ethereum transactions (most people usually have 10 - 20 transaction per month). For paying bills banks usually charge a commission fee of 1%. And if you want to send money to someone 50 kms away but across the border the fee is $20 with few days wait for money to be received.
  - danpalmer 2y ago
    In many parts of the world people are basically cash-only and don't pay fees for handling money most of the time. The "unbanked". This is the market Ethereum wants to serve. Also I'd challenge 10-20 transactions per month. I think in many near cash-less societies it might be closer to 5 per day.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      > The "unbanked". This is the market Ethereum wants to serve M-Pesa got there first, and without the taint of cryptocurrency. It's a real, deployed, working system at scale, and has been for years. The idea that a "hope to serve" after a bit more crypto tech innovation will open an untapped market ... well, I wouldn't take it seriously. It's wishful thinking at both ends of the supply and demand equation.
      - thisgoesnowhere 2y ago
tootie 2y ago
In the many, many years they have spent building a pile of gibberish tech, traditional finance has begun transitioning to T-0 settlement on centralized platforms. FedNow is going to replace ACH and wires and allow 24/7 real-time transactions.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > FedNow is going to allow 24/7 real-time transactions. Following in the steps of what EU and UK did few years ago. (1) And which always made this cryptocurrency fast settlement stuff sound laughable - like they're describing just what a regular bank account does, and it's supposedly their special magic, so what? People need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art. You can even find these systems in Africa already (2) 1) https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_payments/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments 2) https://www.mfw4a.org/news/instant-payment-transactions-africa-39-annually-over-past-five-years-report https://www.mfw4a.org/news/instant-payment-transactions-afri...
  - everfree 2y ago
    > People need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art. And yet people need only to look down at their smartphone, no matter where in the world they are located, to understand the state of the art in public ledgers.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      Regarding "unbanked" people who are "anywhere in the world" but have " their smartphone": Cryptocurrency is not only the wrong product, but also in this case a future functionality would be the wrong time. The market gap for that has closed already due to better systems including M-PESA As I mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39857944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39857944 The consistently ignorant rhetoric here on HN about this supposedly unserved market for cryptocurrency is discouraging. Again, people need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art.
AlienRobot 2y ago
>adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user Considering there are people who don't understand the bitcoins aren't INSIDE a physical wallet, that ship has sailed and made a revolution or two already.
mteam88 2y ago
L2s do not fundamentally add any significant UX complexity. There are some wallets that make this a pain (Metamask) but newer wallets like Rabby (https://rabby.io https://rabby.io) and Rainbow are huge improvements.

by Mahn 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dylkil 2y ago

> which adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user Not exactly, L2s are being abstracted away, end users eventually wont even be aware what chain they are interacting with without tracing the tx

ASinclair 2y ago
If you don’t know which chain you’re interacting with how can you trust your transactions are secured by a chain at all?
- sainez 2y ago
  How does this differ from e.g. online banking? Does every user manually check encryption algorithms and keys?

danpalmer 2y ago

5 cents per transaction is high for many parts of the world, and exceptionally high if every interaction in normal life is turned into a financial transaction.

kinakomochidayo 2y ago
It'll come down even more as blobs are increased, and PeerDAS is implemented
medo-bear 2y ago
What parts of the world? In non developed countries bank fees are actually higher than in the West. In Bosnia a most basic bank account costs about $3 per month, or 60 Ethereum transactions (most people usually have 10 - 20 transaction per month). For paying bills banks usually charge a commission fee of 1%. And if you want to send money to someone 50 kms away but across the border the fee is $20 with few days wait for money to be received.
- danpalmer 2y ago
  In many parts of the world people are basically cash-only and don't pay fees for handling money most of the time. The "unbanked". This is the market Ethereum wants to serve. Also I'd challenge 10-20 transactions per month. I think in many near cash-less societies it might be closer to 5 per day.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > The "unbanked". This is the market Ethereum wants to serve M-Pesa got there first, and without the taint of cryptocurrency. It's a real, deployed, working system at scale, and has been for years. The idea that a "hope to serve" after a bit more crypto tech innovation will open an untapped market ... well, I wouldn't take it seriously. It's wishful thinking at both ends of the supply and demand equation.
    - thisgoesnowhere 2y ago

tootie 2y ago

In the many, many years they have spent building a pile of gibberish tech, traditional finance has begun transitioning to T-0 settlement on centralized platforms. FedNow is going to replace ACH and wires and allow 24/7 real-time transactions.

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
> FedNow is going to allow 24/7 real-time transactions. Following in the steps of what EU and UK did few years ago. (1) And which always made this cryptocurrency fast settlement stuff sound laughable - like they're describing just what a regular bank account does, and it's supposedly their special magic, so what? People need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art. You can even find these systems in Africa already (2) 1) https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_payments/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments 2) https://www.mfw4a.org/news/instant-payment-transactions-africa-39-annually-over-past-five-years-report https://www.mfw4a.org/news/instant-payment-transactions-afri...
- everfree 2y ago
  > People need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art. And yet people need only to look down at their smartphone, no matter where in the world they are located, to understand the state of the art in public ledgers.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    Regarding "unbanked" people who are "anywhere in the world" but have " their smartphone": Cryptocurrency is not only the wrong product, but also in this case a future functionality would be the wrong time. The market gap for that has closed already due to better systems including M-PESA As I mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39857944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39857944 The consistently ignorant rhetoric here on HN about this supposedly unserved market for cryptocurrency is discouraging. Again, people need to look outside of the USA to understand the state of the art.

AlienRobot 2y ago

>adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user Considering there are people who don't understand the bitcoins aren't INSIDE a physical wallet, that ship has sailed and made a revolution or two already.

mteam88 2y ago

L2s do not fundamentally add any significant UX complexity. There are some wallets that make this a pain (Metamask) but newer wallets like Rabby (https://rabby.io https://rabby.io) and Rainbow are huge improvements.