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I've heard that the gyroscopic effect in bicycles is rather small. The balance instead comes from the positive angle of the front wheel, creating feedback. If t

by pubby 2y ago

I've heard that the gyroscopic effect in bicycles is rather small. The balance instead comes from the positive angle of the front wheel, creating feedback. If the bike leans one direction, the wheel rotates to counteract it.

masklinn 2y ago
Destin’s inverted steering bike is definitely an argument for that, inverting the steering does not affect the gyroscopic effect, but the bike requires re-learning how to ride.
- dools 2y ago
  No, it doesn't make an argument for that. It's no different from inverting your mouse wheel scroll direction. If you're used to doing it one way you have to get used to doing it another way.
  - masklinn 2y ago
    > No, it doesn't make an argument for that. Of course it does. > It's no different from inverting your mouse wheel scroll direction. If you're used to doing it one way you have to get used to doing it another way. If you invert scroll direction it does not make the mouse stop working, it only hinders scrolling. But inverting steering has an immediate effect on balance, not just on your ability to take a turn.
jay_kyburz 2y ago
I've been riding an scooter to work for a few years, and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels on a bike do make a big difference. You can't take one hand off the handle bars to use your arm to indicate on a scooter. You will lose control instantly. When I ride my bike I can ride most of the way sitting up and not holding the handle bars at all.
zargon 2y ago
It doesn't matter how the bicycle balances, just that inventors thought it to be possible. Gyroscopes could have inspired that belief. Balancing was probably discovered in a "it works if we design it like this" manner, rather than from first principles.
dools 2y ago
You can measure it for yourself: balance on the bike when it is stationary, then compare the experience to when you're moving. When you are moving, it adds in the gyroscopic balancing effect. Gyroscopic motion means that the force applied acts about 90 degrees later, so when you turn the handlebars which are on a (roughly) vertical axis (call it the "z" axis), the force of that turn is actually applied about the axis that runs from front to back (call it the "y" axis). Gyroscopes "translate" the force. If you're stationary, and there is no gyroscopic motion, then the only thing that turning the wheel really does is allow you to move the front of the bike to the left or right in order to change your centre of gravity.
- mr_mitm 2y ago
  My professor debunked this in experimental physics 101. He installed counter wheels on the wheels which spun in the opposite direction (without touching the floor obviously) and was able to still ride the bike just fine. It may play a part in the effect, but does not explain it entirely.
  - dools 2y ago
    Well, you can debunk that debunking easily enough if you have a bike. Stand in front of the bike and lift up the front wheel, holding one fork in each hand. Attempt to turn the front wheel from side to side without the seat changing position at all. Now hold the bike up with one hand and with your other hand spin the front wheel as fast as you can. Now with the front wheel still spinning, go back to holding one fork in each hand and attempt to turn the front wheel side to side without the seat moving at all. You will find it more challenging to do and you will notice that the tendency is for the seat to move in the opposite direction from that which you turn the front wheel. That is, you turn the front wheel towards your right side, the seat will move towards your left side. This is the "counter steering" effect that we use in order to balance when riding a bike, and it's entirely due to gyroscopic motion.
    - Someone 2y ago
      I don’t see how that debunks that debunking. That professor didn’t claim there is no gyroscopic effect, but that it isn’t necessary to ride a bicycle. > This is the "counter steering" effect that we use in order to balance when riding a bike, and it's entirely due to gyroscopic motion. If that’s true, gyroscopic motion is necessary to ride a bicycle. See also http://www3.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyrobike.htm http://www3.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyrobike.htm (with a few good links at the bottom for those who need more convincing), which says: “It is almost certain that gyro effects are important at the initial stage of steering manoeuvres. […] My point is that gyroscopic effects are not needed to keep you from falling over when you are riding in a straight line. I am not saying anything about what happens when you actively wish to steer away from straight ahead.” It also does some calculations that show how small the gyroscopic force is compared to the weight of (bicycle plus rider) So the gyroscopic effect isn’t necessary to balance a bike, but likely helps in making turns.

by pubby 2y ago

masklinn 2y ago

Destin’s inverted steering bike is definitely an argument for that, inverting the steering does not affect the gyroscopic effect, but the bike requires re-learning how to ride.

dools 2y ago
No, it doesn't make an argument for that. It's no different from inverting your mouse wheel scroll direction. If you're used to doing it one way you have to get used to doing it another way.
- masklinn 2y ago
  > No, it doesn't make an argument for that. Of course it does. > It's no different from inverting your mouse wheel scroll direction. If you're used to doing it one way you have to get used to doing it another way. If you invert scroll direction it does not make the mouse stop working, it only hinders scrolling. But inverting steering has an immediate effect on balance, not just on your ability to take a turn.

jay_kyburz 2y ago

I've been riding an scooter to work for a few years, and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels on a bike do make a big difference. You can't take one hand off the handle bars to use your arm to indicate on a scooter. You will lose control instantly. When I ride my bike I can ride most of the way sitting up and not holding the handle bars at all.

zargon 2y ago

It doesn't matter how the bicycle balances, just that inventors thought it to be possible. Gyroscopes could have inspired that belief. Balancing was probably discovered in a "it works if we design it like this" manner, rather than from first principles.

dools 2y ago

You can measure it for yourself: balance on the bike when it is stationary, then compare the experience to when you're moving. When you are moving, it adds in the gyroscopic balancing effect. Gyroscopic motion means that the force applied acts about 90 degrees later, so when you turn the handlebars which are on a (roughly) vertical axis (call it the "z" axis), the force of that turn is actually applied about the axis that runs from front to back (call it the "y" axis). Gyroscopes "translate" the force. If you're stationary, and there is no gyroscopic motion, then the only thing that turning the wheel really does is allow you to move the front of the bike to the left or right in order to change your centre of gravity.

mr_mitm 2y ago
My professor debunked this in experimental physics 101. He installed counter wheels on the wheels which spun in the opposite direction (without touching the floor obviously) and was able to still ride the bike just fine. It may play a part in the effect, but does not explain it entirely.
- dools 2y ago
  Well, you can debunk that debunking easily enough if you have a bike. Stand in front of the bike and lift up the front wheel, holding one fork in each hand. Attempt to turn the front wheel from side to side without the seat changing position at all. Now hold the bike up with one hand and with your other hand spin the front wheel as fast as you can. Now with the front wheel still spinning, go back to holding one fork in each hand and attempt to turn the front wheel side to side without the seat moving at all. You will find it more challenging to do and you will notice that the tendency is for the seat to move in the opposite direction from that which you turn the front wheel. That is, you turn the front wheel towards your right side, the seat will move towards your left side. This is the "counter steering" effect that we use in order to balance when riding a bike, and it's entirely due to gyroscopic motion.
  - Someone 2y ago
    I don’t see how that debunks that debunking. That professor didn’t claim there is no gyroscopic effect, but that it isn’t necessary to ride a bicycle. > This is the "counter steering" effect that we use in order to balance when riding a bike, and it's entirely due to gyroscopic motion. If that’s true, gyroscopic motion is necessary to ride a bicycle. See also http://www3.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyrobike.htm http://www3.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyrobike.htm (with a few good links at the bottom for those who need more convincing), which says: “It is almost certain that gyro effects are important at the initial stage of steering manoeuvres. […] My point is that gyroscopic effects are not needed to keep you from falling over when you are riding in a straight line. I am not saying anything about what happens when you actively wish to steer away from straight ahead.” It also does some calculations that show how small the gyroscopic force is compared to the weight of (bicycle plus rider) So the gyroscopic effect isn’t necessary to balance a bike, but likely helps in making turns.